From: jan.larsson <>
>
> > A listening evaluation of just ATRAC alone is not as easy to get as it
> > might seem. To do such a test in a valid way one has to have
> absolutely
> > the same path for both samples everywhere else, do not assume that
> > different digital paths will be equal. It would be best done on the
> > ATRAC chip itself, but few want to dissect this out of their recorder.
>
> No you dont, what a strange statement to make. I dont remember the
> model of the minidisc-recorder used but it was a rack-mounted Sony
> designed for use in mastering studios. The test was
> digital-in/digital-out and everything was reset and turned off as much
> as possible on this machine like on the other various encoder/decoders
> involved. Everything was level and phase-matched which we hade some
> trouble doing giving the nature of these formats (I was the one working
> with Dolby Digital (AC3)).
>
> It was digital from the same reference recording (wich included test
> tones and so on) and didnt enter analog again until hitting the DAC in
> the CD-player.
You confirmed my expectations.
> So the TCDD10 was never anywhere close, I didnt even own it at the time
> these tests were setup and run. I am currently running it with a
> prototype micpre/ADC and I am very happy with the sound I get now ;=)
Then why include it in a post of this type? To confuse? Or just a
smokescreen? It was off topic for the thread, put up a separate post to
gripe about the TCDD10's pre's. I'm in complete agreement with you on
them based on what I've read and heard. Unless you wish to pass it off
as a ATRAC problem...
> I dont see what all this ATRAC-angst amongst its users has to do with
> nature recording? Correct me if I'm wrong but there exists quite a
> lively minidisc-community on the net where those who are really
> interested can discuss these matters no? I dont mind anyone using
> minidisc to record birds. I dont even care. I love to listen to
> recordings made with almost anything. I dont use minidisc myself - but
> I wont say why so no one needs to get upset ;=)
>
> If I used ATRAC and worried so much about it's effects as some of its
> users tend to do. And be so upset at every hint that it may not be the
> perfect straight wire with no sound. Well, I would put my mind to rest
> simply by using something else and get on with more
> important/interesting things in life. So please stop worrying so much.
> If it sounds good then it is good. It need not be perfect.
You misunderstand who is all worried.
It's very similar to the experience mac users have to use minidisc.
Mention that you use mac and it's very common for windows users to
question your sanity. And you naturally respond to say why you use macs,
and thank you no, you are perfectly sane. That does not mean mac users
constantly are engaged in some kind of angst, we just like the record to
be clear. In actual use a mac user has to worry over his computer less
than a windows person. (though with OSX that's less so) We just get on
with our lives and interests. A computer is just a tool we use, mostly
without thinking about it. Which is why we choose macs.
The situation is very similar with minidisc. Most experienced users know
exactly what they will get, and that's very good. When I'm recording I
worry about soundfield composition, mic setup, gain adjustment and so
on, ATRAC is not at all part of my worries. I might as well worry that
the recorder case will implode, or terrorists will attack.
The folks who engage in ATRAC-angst is the anti ATRAC folks. They never
use minidisc as a rule, have no experience with what they are talking
about. Do some little isolated test and proclaim themselves expert on
the subject and the experienced folks with minidisc fools. I don't at
all mind that, unless they try and impose their religion on others. In
particular when they try and confuse the facts and relative importance
to beginners who don't yet have the experience to judge on their own.
Then those using minidisc do try and provide some balance. To place all
this in perspective. And get accused of ATRAC-angst.
Remember, this discussion started with such a beginner asking for a
comparison of recorders. Followed by a inexperienced anti ATRAC person
trying to pass off clipping as ATRAC, a classic ploy as I showed. It is
important that beginners in digital recording learn to accurately
recognize clipping and how to avoid it. Or do you not think so? They
should certainly not look at clipping and think it's something else they
can't fix. Let's not teach them to do that. No amount of hand waving
will change what was attempted. Though there has been considerable
effort on the part of Anti-ATRAC folks to sidestep the issue. The real
issue is not ATRAC, it's confusing inexperienced beginners who want to
learn to record nature. As such it is not a subject that can be taken to
the minidisc groups. The buck stops here.
Walt
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