Quite agree - although today I have done what I have sworn never to do and
joined Facebook!
On 14 November 2014 11:40, Graeme Stevens <> wrote:
> I "liked" it a lot too Russ but couldn't find that button either so will
> have to use antiquated text to say:
>
> Your efforts and the mail group are deeply appreciated here and many on
> list have contributed on and off line very kindly and helpfully to my
> enjoyment of travels in the natural world - and I hope in some small way I
> have been able to return the favour.
>
> Works for me!
>
> Graeme S
>
> > From:
> > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 00:02:38 +1000
> > To:
> > CC: ;
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Historic channels
> >
> > Russell
> >
> > I liked your post - but couldn't find the button to click to tell you!
> Lol
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 23:20, "Russell Woodford" <>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Someone on the Facebook discussion of this same topic said they didn't
> want
> > > their posts pushed to birding-aus. An interesting point. Facebook owns
> > > everything that is posted there, but as far as I can tell there is no
> > > *technical* barrier to taking a feed from a FB group to Birding-Aus.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I am not about to do this!!! The amount of traffic on B-Aus is
> > > about right, and I don't want flood subscribers with the conversations
> from
> > > Facebook. I like reading both forums, but I am glad I only have to run
> one
> > > of them (and Peter and Bill, the moderators, do most of that!) so I'm
> not
> > > about to hijack content from elsewhere.
> > >
> > > I agree that email is a bit of a generational thing (that's the polite
> way
> > > of saying it's for old people) and the new generation of bright young
> > > birders use social media instead. If I plan my exit perfectly, I should
> > > shuffle off this mortal coil at about the time that the few remaining
> > > Birding-Aus subscribers sit around in residential care wondering who
> Night
> > > Parr0t really was and thinking up some new comments about banding.
> That is,
> > > Birding-Aus and I should depart quietly together, by which time James
> > > Mustafa will be retired, and be the Australian record holder and the
> only
> > > one in the 1000 Club, and all the young birders of that age wonder why
> he
> > > STILL writes stuff on Facebook because nobody has used it for for,
> like,
> > > decades ...
> > >
> > > I really value this community, because it is only the people who
> contribute
> > > that give it any value at all - but while it is nice to have
> Birding-Aus
> > > now, it will probably lose its relevance or usefulness, just as
> Facebook
> > > might. How many of us still sit up all night reading Usenet
> newsgroups???
> > > Times change, tools and technologies change. People don't change that
> much,
> > > but they naturally adopt the tools that suit them best. I thought
> > > Gestettner spirit masters were the best thing ever for teaching when I
> > > started my career. But there is little point hanging on to a technology
> > > just because you like the smell of the printing fluid :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > When it's time to shut down Birding-Aus, there probably won't be any
> > > subscribers left to notify. I hope that isn't for a while yet.
> > >
> > > Russell Woodford
> > > Birding-Aus Founder
> > >
> > >> On 13 November 2014 20:16, Ashwin Rudder <>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps this is digressing from a birdwatching topic, however it's a
> > >> somewhat meta topic on the value of birding-aus in 2014 and probably a
> > >> discussion worth having. It's a fact that those following b-a alone
> to find
> > >> out about vagrants have been privy to a tiny fraction of the
> discussion on
> > >> the location of this dowitcher, its ID features, the photos of it (in
> fact,
> > >> you wouldn't have seen them at all). By the time the first post to
> this
> > >> page about the bird was made, the first car was already halfway to the
> > >> site. And the first post to birdline wasn't made until well over 12
> hours
> > >> after the debate on facebook had started. Say what you will about
> facebook,
> > >> but it's now the premier place for these discussions, and the fastest
> way
> > >> of getting the word out.
> > >>
> > >> This is not to bad-mouth birding-aus. I think it's an invaluable
> resource.
> > >> It remains a far better place than facebook for trip reports (although
> > >> these seem few and far between now). But it needs to find a way to
> remain
> > >> relevant, and if that way isn't as a noticeboard for sightings, then
> it's
> > >> worth noting here that there are better sites elsewhere.
> > >>
> > >> Lastly, a brief note on advertising. Google is free. Gmail is free,
> Google
> > >> Maps, Youtube, and a series of other sites that many people here use
> on a
> > >> daily basis, are free. Probably about a third of people using
> birding-aus
> > >> use mobile phones running software by Google. All this is possible
> because
> > >> that company makes money by the shedload from selling advertising
> space,
> > >> and by knowing what you're looking at. Facebook is no different, but
> it
> > >> cops flak because the services it provides are not as fundamental
> just at
> > >> the minute as those provided by Google. In essence, not using
> facebook on
> > >> the basis of its data gathering policy, yet using Google-provided
> programs
> > >> is the same as vegetarians who eat fish.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Ashwin Rudder
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Graeme Stevens <
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Probably diverting now well away from a birding thread guys and the
> > >> debate
> > >>> about the pros and cons of the TwitFace era could get tiresome, but
> if
> > >> you
> > >>> recall, a lot of people paid very large amounts of money for Facebook
> > >>> shares when it floated and now those shareholders want and expect a
> > >> return.
> > >>>
> > >>> So where is that going to come from do you reckon? Advertising of
> course,
> > >>> and business analytics (knowing everything it can about its users to
> > >> sell
> > >>> to whoever can use the data and will pay for it) - and it's not alone
> > >>> there.
> > >>> It's a public company and aint no charity!
> > >>>
> > >>> That doesn't mean the functionality isn't useful - just keep the eyes
> > >> wide
> > >>> open?
> > >>>
> > >>> Graeme S
> > >>>
> > >>>> From:
> > >>>> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:26:32 +1100
> > >>>> To:
> > >>>> CC: ;
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Historic channels
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I just ignore the ads. Never seen anything that I am interested in,
> or
> > >>> really applies to me. I seem to be immune to advertising.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Carl Clifford
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2014, at 18:10, Martin Butterfield <
> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It may be relevant to note that I read an article some months ago,
> in
> > >>> the finance pages that Facebook is now seen as an advertising
> business
> > >>> rather than a part of the IT industry. That is part of my reasoning
> for
> > >>> having nothing to do with them.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Martin
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Thursday, 13 November 2014, Carl Clifford <
> > >> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Chris,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> FB does not have to steal your content. By posting, you have given
> > >>> them permission to do what they want with anything you post. Anyone
> who
> > >>> complains is only welching on the agreement they have made with FB.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Carl Clifford
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2014, at 16:47, Chris Sanderson <
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi Carl and everyone,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This gets trotted out pretty regularly as a reason not to post
> > >>> anything on a variety of platforms, including Facebook. I would
> suggest
> > >> the
> > >>> idea that Facebook has any interest in your particular bird photo is
> > >> pretty
> > >>> ridiculous. While a very loose legal interpretation might be that
> they
> > >> are
> > >>> entitled to use those photographs you post, this is mainly an
> > >> ass-covering
> > >>> exercise from a legal perspective, as they distribute your
> photograph to
> > >>> friends, friends of friends, or anyone who looks at it, depending on
> your
> > >>> security settings. You are essentially giving them permission to do
> this.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Now, I'm not saying that Facebook doesn't have privacy and data
> > >>> issues (they are known to sell your behavioural data to marketers, or
> > >> even
> > >>> manipulate your experience on the site for research purposes),
> however
> > >> the
> > >>> idea that they would risk a huge media blow-up over stealing
> someone's
> > >>> photos is, to me at least, stretching belief. They make money off
> people
> > >>> who use their site. If you stop producing content for them, or stop
> using
> > >>> their site, they aren't showing you advertising anymore, or
> aggregating
> > >>> your data to sell to marketing people. This is worth far more to them
> > >> than
> > >>> any photograph could be worth. I have no doubt I have earned Facebook
> > >> more
> > >>> revenue just by using it than I have ever made selling photos.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Having said all that, if you don't want to post photos on
> > >> Facebook,
> > >>> there's no reason you have to. And if you don't want to be on
> Facebook at
> > >>> all, that's fine too, that's totally your call. Just don't be too
> > >> surprised
> > >>> if you start missing out on the latest in bird news, since that
> seems to
> > >> be
> > >>> the way things are going at the moment here in Aus.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Carl Clifford <
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Here is section 1. of Facebook's statement on intellectual
> > >>> property rights.
> > >>>>>>>> For content that is covered by intellectual property rights,
> such
> > >>> as photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the
> following
> > >>> permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you
> grant
> > >> us
> > >>> a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free,
> worldwide
> > >>> licence to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with
> > >>> Facebook (IP Licence). This IP Licence ends when you delete your IP
> > >> content
> > >>> or your account, unless your content has been shared with others and
> they
> > >>> have not deleted it. the full T&C can be found at
> > >>> https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I would be very careful about posting anything, text or images
> on
> > >>> Facebook that you would want to possibly want to make money out of
> in the
> > >>> future. they can probably afford bigger and better lawyers than the
> > >> average
> > >>> FB user, and you would have to take them on in the US legal system.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Carl Clifford
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2014, at 2:52 pm,
> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> That makes Facebook's alternative name "stalkbook" even more
> > >>> appropriate, or should that be "storkbook".....
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Doesn't everything that goes on facebook, including pictures,
> > >>> become the property of facebook and not the "owner" of the photos,
> etc?
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I will stick with B-A, even though Rusty is a blues man... :-)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Yours in all things "green"
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> John Harris BASc, GDipEd
> > >>>>>>>>> Director - Wildlife Experiences P/L
> > >>>>>>>>> Principal Zoologist/Ecologist
> > >>>>>>>>> Nature Photographer
> > >>>>>>>>> Wildlife Guide
> > >>>>>>>>> Croydon, Vic
> > >>>>>>>>> 0409 090 955
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria
> > >>>>>>>>> www.fncv.org.au
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Reply message -----
> > >>>>>>>>> From: "Ashwin Rudder" <>
> > >>>>>>>>> To: "John Tongue" <>
> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: "" <
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Historic channels
> > >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 11:57
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Hi Peter, and others,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> John is right, the majority of the discussion has happened on
> > >>> facebook.
> > >>>>>>>>> Increasingly I think, there is a shift away from birding-aus
> > >> for
> > >>> several
> > >>>>>>>>> reasons. An email list is a relatively slow way of
> > >> disseminating
> > >>>>>>>>> information (much faster than past methods, but much slower
> > >> than
> > >>> something
> > >>>>>>>>> like facebook). Most significantly, b-a suffers from not being
> > >>> able to
> > >>>>>>>>> handle image files. Almost all of the discussion on the
> > >>> dowitcher's ID has
> > >>>>>>>>> come from people being able to post photos, add pointers to
> > >>> them, and talk
> > >>>>>>>>> very quickly, in much more of a conversational style than b-a
> > >>> allows. A
> > >>>>>>>>> video or two has also been posted.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> In terms of how easy it is to retrieve information on facebook:
> > >>> there is a
> > >>>>>>>>> search function that acts like a find tool in a Microsoft Word
> > >>> document (or
> > >>>>>>>>> similar), so it looks for any post containing that word, and
> > >>> then displays
> > >>>>>>>>> the entire thread. In essence, it is no different to searching
> > >>> the archives
> > >>>>>>>>> of birding-aus, although without any issues of having the
> > >>> subject line
> > >>>>>>>>> change halfway through a thread, which can make topics hard to
> > >>> follow here.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Obviously, the shift to facebook further fragments the
> > >> grapevine
> > >>> that the
> > >>>>>>>>> birding community relies on. However, increasing numbers of
> > >>> people, of all
> > >>>>>>>>> ages, have facebook and it really is very convenient. Birdline
> > >>> remains the
> > >>>>>>>>> premier rare bird telegraph page, while this page remains the
> > >>> best for in
> > >>>>>>>>> depth discussions. One of the great criticisms of facebook by
> > >>> social
> > >>>>>>>>> commentators is that it feed the instantaneous me-me-me!
> > >>> attitude of the
> > >>>>>>>>> yoof; ironically, this is exactly what's needed for rare,
> > >>> twitchable birds,
> > >>>>>>>>> and that makes modern-day social media the best spot for
> > >>> twitchers.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>> Ashwin Rudder
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:37 AM, John Tongue <
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Peter, et al,
> > >>>>>>>>>> There has been a fair bit of discussion on the "Australian
> > >>> Twitchers" FB
> > >>>>>>>>>> page. While people keep adding comments to a particular
> > >> thread,
> > >>> that keeps
> > >>>>>>>>>> it live and active. I'm not sure what happens to that info
> > >> some
> > >>> time after
> > >>>>>>>>>> people stop commenting, and how easy it will prove to be to
> > >>> retrieve.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>> John Tongue
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2014, at 7:16 AM, Peter Shute <>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting comment below from Ashwin about where the
> > >>> discussion of
> > >>>>>>>>>> Victoria's Lake Tutchewop Dowitcher is taking place. I assume
> > >>> "historic
> > >>>>>>>>>> channels" means the birding-aus list?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Where else is discussion taking place? I've seen plenty of
> > >>> discussion in
> > >>>>>>>>>> the Victorian Birders Facebook group. Is there anywhere else?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Facebook has the advantage that photos can be posted, but I'm
> > >>> wondering
> > >>>>>>>>>> if there is any kind of archive being kept. I often can't find
> > >>> a Facebook
> > >>>>>>>>>> discussion just days after I last looked at it, let alone
> > >>> months or years.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Is there a way to find them, or is this stuff just getting
> > >>> lost? And does
> > >>>>>>>>>> it matter?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Peter Shute
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2014, at 5:03 am, Ashwin Rudder <
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't seen anything really up to date posted to b-a;
> > >> most
> > >>> discussion
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to have happened away from the historic channels. In
> > >>> summary:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <HR>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>>>>>>>>> </HR>
> > >>>>>>>>> <HR>
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR>
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> > >>>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>>>>>>> </HR>
> > >>>>>>>>> <HR>
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>>>>>>> </HR>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> <HR>
> > >>>>>>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>>>>>>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>>>>>>> <BR>
> > >>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>>>>>> </HR>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Check out our site: http://www.bird-o.com
> > >>>>>>> Follow us on Facebook (Bird-O) and Twitter
> > >>>>>> <HR>
> > >>>>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>>>> <BR>
> > >>>>>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>>>>> <BR>
> > >>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>>>> </HR>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Martin Butterfield
> > >>>>> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> > >>>> <HR>
> > >>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>> <BR>
> > >>>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>>> <BR>
> > >> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>> </HR>
> > >> <HR>
> > >> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >> <BR>
> > >> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >> </HR>
> > > <HR>
> > > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > > <BR>
> > > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > > <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > > </HR>
> >
> > <HR>
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>
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