Hi all,
Perhaps this is digressing from a birdwatching topic, however it's a
somewhat meta topic on the value of birding-aus in 2014 and probably a
discussion worth having. It's a fact that those following b-a alone to find
out about vagrants have been privy to a tiny fraction of the discussion on
the location of this dowitcher, its ID features, the photos of it (in fact,
you wouldn't have seen them at all). By the time the first post to this
page about the bird was made, the first car was already halfway to the
site. And the first post to birdline wasn't made until well over 12 hours
after the debate on facebook had started. Say what you will about facebook,
but it's now the premier place for these discussions, and the fastest way
of getting the word out.
This is not to bad-mouth birding-aus. I think it's an invaluable resource.
It remains a far better place than facebook for trip reports (although
these seem few and far between now). But it needs to find a way to remain
relevant, and if that way isn't as a noticeboard for sightings, then it's
worth noting here that there are better sites elsewhere.
Lastly, a brief note on advertising. Google is free. Gmail is free, Google
Maps, Youtube, and a series of other sites that many people here use on a
daily basis, are free. Probably about a third of people using birding-aus
use mobile phones running software by Google. All this is possible because
that company makes money by the shedload from selling advertising space,
and by knowing what you're looking at. Facebook is no different, but it
cops flak because the services it provides are not as fundamental just at
the minute as those provided by Google. In essence, not using facebook on
the basis of its data gathering policy, yet using Google-provided programs
is the same as vegetarians who eat fish.
Cheers,
Ashwin Rudder
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Graeme Stevens <>
wrote:
> Probably diverting now well away from a birding thread guys and the debate
> about the pros and cons of the TwitFace era could get tiresome, but if you
> recall, a lot of people paid very large amounts of money for Facebook
> shares when it floated and now those shareholders want and expect a return.
>
> So where is that going to come from do you reckon? Advertising of course,
> and business analytics (knowing everything it can about its users to sell
> to whoever can use the data and will pay for it) - and it's not alone
> there.
> It's a public company and aint no charity!
>
> That doesn't mean the functionality isn't useful - just keep the eyes wide
> open?
>
> Graeme S
>
> > From:
> > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:26:32 +1100
> > To:
> > CC: ;
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Historic channels
> >
> > I just ignore the ads. Never seen anything that I am interested in, or
> really applies to me. I seem to be immune to advertising.
> >
> > Carl Clifford
> >
> >
> > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 18:10, Martin Butterfield <>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > It may be relevant to note that I read an article some months ago, in
> the finance pages that Facebook is now seen as an advertising business
> rather than a part of the IT industry. That is part of my reasoning for
> having nothing to do with them.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >> On Thursday, 13 November 2014, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> > >> Chris,
> > >>
> > >> FB does not have to steal your content. By posting, you have given
> them permission to do what they want with anything you post. Anyone who
> complains is only welching on the agreement they have made with FB.
> > >>
> > >> Carl Clifford
> > >>
> > >> > On 13 Nov 2014, at 16:47, Chris Sanderson <
> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi Carl and everyone,
> > >> >
> > >> > This gets trotted out pretty regularly as a reason not to post
> anything on a variety of platforms, including Facebook. I would suggest the
> idea that Facebook has any interest in your particular bird photo is pretty
> ridiculous. While a very loose legal interpretation might be that they are
> entitled to use those photographs you post, this is mainly an ass-covering
> exercise from a legal perspective, as they distribute your photograph to
> friends, friends of friends, or anyone who looks at it, depending on your
> security settings. You are essentially giving them permission to do this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Now, I'm not saying that Facebook doesn't have privacy and data
> issues (they are known to sell your behavioural data to marketers, or even
> manipulate your experience on the site for research purposes), however the
> idea that they would risk a huge media blow-up over stealing someone's
> photos is, to me at least, stretching belief. They make money off people
> who use their site. If you stop producing content for them, or stop using
> their site, they aren't showing you advertising anymore, or aggregating
> your data to sell to marketing people. This is worth far more to them than
> any photograph could be worth. I have no doubt I have earned Facebook more
> revenue just by using it than I have ever made selling photos.
> > >> >
> > >> > Having said all that, if you don't want to post photos on Facebook,
> there's no reason you have to. And if you don't want to be on Facebook at
> all, that's fine too, that's totally your call. Just don't be too surprised
> if you start missing out on the latest in bird news, since that seems to be
> the way things are going at the moment here in Aus.
> > >> >
> > >> > Cheers,
> > >> > Chris
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Carl Clifford <
> > wrote:
> > >> >> Here is section 1. of Facebook's statement on intellectual
> property rights.
> > >> >> For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, such
> as photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following
> permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us
> a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide
> licence to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with
> Facebook (IP Licence). This IP Licence ends when you delete your IP content
> or your account, unless your content has been shared with others and they
> have not deleted it. the full T&C can be found at
> https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I would be very careful about posting anything, text or images on
> Facebook that you would want to possibly want to make money out of in the
> future. they can probably afford bigger and better lawyers than the average
> FB user, and you would have to take them on in the US legal system.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Carl Clifford
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On 13 Nov 2014, at 2:52 pm, wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > That makes Facebook's alternative name "stalkbook" even more
> appropriate, or should that be "storkbook".....
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Doesn't everything that goes on facebook, including pictures,
> become the property of facebook and not the "owner" of the photos, etc?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I will stick with B-A, even though Rusty is a blues man... :-)
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Yours in all things "green"
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > John Harris BASc, GDipEd
> > >> >> > Director - Wildlife Experiences P/L
> > >> >> > Principal Zoologist/Ecologist
> > >> >> > Nature Photographer
> > >> >> > Wildlife Guide
> > >> >> > Croydon, Vic
> > >> >> > 0409 090 955
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria
> > >> >> > www.fncv.org.au
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > ----- Reply message -----
> > >> >> > From: "Ashwin Rudder" <>
> > >> >> > To: "John Tongue" <>
> > >> >> > Cc: "" <>
> > >> >> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] Historic channels
> > >> >> > Date: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 11:57
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Hi Peter, and others,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > John is right, the majority of the discussion has happened on
> facebook.
> > >> >> > Increasingly I think, there is a shift away from birding-aus for
> several
> > >> >> > reasons. An email list is a relatively slow way of disseminating
> > >> >> > information (much faster than past methods, but much slower than
> something
> > >> >> > like facebook). Most significantly, b-a suffers from not being
> able to
> > >> >> > handle image files. Almost all of the discussion on the
> dowitcher's ID has
> > >> >> > come from people being able to post photos, add pointers to
> them, and talk
> > >> >> > very quickly, in much more of a conversational style than b-a
> allows. A
> > >> >> > video or two has also been posted.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > In terms of how easy it is to retrieve information on facebook:
> there is a
> > >> >> > search function that acts like a find tool in a Microsoft Word
> document (or
> > >> >> > similar), so it looks for any post containing that word, and
> then displays
> > >> >> > the entire thread. In essence, it is no different to searching
> the archives
> > >> >> > of birding-aus, although without any issues of having the
> subject line
> > >> >> > change halfway through a thread, which can make topics hard to
> follow here.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Obviously, the shift to facebook further fragments the grapevine
> that the
> > >> >> > birding community relies on. However, increasing numbers of
> people, of all
> > >> >> > ages, have facebook and it really is very convenient. Birdline
> remains the
> > >> >> > premier rare bird telegraph page, while this page remains the
> best for in
> > >> >> > depth discussions. One of the great criticisms of facebook by
> social
> > >> >> > commentators is that it feed the instantaneous me-me-me!
> attitude of the
> > >> >> > yoof; ironically, this is exactly what's needed for rare,
> twitchable birds,
> > >> >> > and that makes modern-day social media the best spot for
> twitchers.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Cheers,
> > >> >> > Ashwin Rudder
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:37 AM, John Tongue <
> > wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Hi Peter, et al,
> > >> >> >> There has been a fair bit of discussion on the "Australian
> Twitchers" FB
> > >> >> >> page. While people keep adding comments to a particular thread,
> that keeps
> > >> >> >> it live and active. I'm not sure what happens to that info some
> time after
> > >> >> >> people stop commenting, and how easy it will prove to be to
> retrieve.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Cheers,
> > >> >> >> John Tongue
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> On 13/11/2014, at 7:16 AM, Peter Shute <>
> wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>> Interesting comment below from Ashwin about where the
> discussion of
> > >> >> >> Victoria's Lake Tutchewop Dowitcher is taking place. I assume
> "historic
> > >> >> >> channels" means the birding-aus list?
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Where else is discussion taking place? I've seen plenty of
> discussion in
> > >> >> >> the Victorian Birders Facebook group. Is there anywhere else?
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Facebook has the advantage that photos can be posted, but I'm
> wondering
> > >> >> >> if there is any kind of archive being kept. I often can't find
> a Facebook
> > >> >> >> discussion just days after I last looked at it, let alone
> months or years.
> > >> >> >> Is there a way to find them, or is this stuff just getting
> lost? And does
> > >> >> >> it matter?
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Peter Shute
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Sent from my iPad
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>> On 13 Nov 2014, at 5:03 am, Ashwin Rudder <
> > wrote:
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> Hi all,
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> I haven't seen anything really up to date posted to b-a; most
> discussion
> > >> >> >>>> seems to have happened away from the historic channels. In
> summary:
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> <HR>
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> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > <HR>
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> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> >
> > >> > Check out our site: http://www.bird-o.com
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> > > --
> > > Martin Butterfield
> > > http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> > >
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