At 9:59 AM -0700 3/27/10, Mike Wall wrote:
>
>
>Rob,
>Thanks for this analysis. I love the video synced with the audio.
>Quite illustrative.
Its a "video" with only one frame made from a screen-shot of the DAW
editing window that I paste into the sound file using QuickTime. Very
easy. The time line cursor sync's well when the movie is played with
QuickTime Player but can get off with other movie players.
>I am already thinking about possible upgrade options from the LS-10
>to another portable recorder with better noise performance (and less
>intrinsic LF roll-off) with a beefy enough PIP circuit to complement
>these new mics.
Klas would know about the PIP requirements. If the clip-on mics are
in the neighborhood of 14dB(A) self-noise, a recorder that Raimund
tested -122dBU or quieter would allow the mics to shine:
from: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
SONY PCM-D50 -126dBu
Marantz PMD661 -125dBu
SONY Hi-MD MZ-RH1 -124dBu (<2 volts PIP)
SONY PCM-M10 -122dBu
=3D =3D =3D =3D
Edirol R-09HR (MIC Gain H) -118dBu
If you think you'll ever want to use the Clip-ons with your SD722,
you could power them from the 722's phantom with a couple of Shure
MX1BP's or something similar. Then you could test a "Clip-on" beside
your mkh40 [12dB(A) self-noise] on your 722 to see if investing in
another, quieter hand-held recorder make sense.
I see that the MX1BP phantom power converters (mis-named, "preamps")
have been discontinued but a few vendors seem to have some in stock.
I remember there was considerable discussion on the list about
phantom power converters for electret mics http://tinyurl.com/yjr4ufr
but I don't remember if we confirmed that other units worked or not.
I think the MX1BP outputs 9 volts, best to run that past Klas. Rob D.
>I will certainly share any interesting clips that I am able to
>record during our trip next week, etc.
>Again - thanks for taking the time to do this,
>Mike
>
>--- On Fri, 3/26/10, Rob Danielson
><<type%40uwm.edu>> wrote:
>
>From: Rob Danielson <<type%40uwm.edu>>
>Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Suburban Soundscape and New Telinga Clip-=
Ons
>To:
><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
m
>Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 12:48 AM
>
>
>
>Hi Mike--
>Thanks for taking time to share your comparisons with us. To study
>them further, I took your quiet studio clips:
>
>Telinga Clip-On Mics -> LS-10 (3.5mm mic input)
>and
>MKH40-30 -> 722
>
>and matched them two ways: (1) without any EQ using RMS and (2) with
>Low Hz Roll-Off (200 Hz 12dB/Octave) to account for the difference in
>low-end responses and matched the room tone perceptually.
>
>Then I took clips from urban ambience and again used Low Hz Roll-Off
>(200 Hz 12dB/Octave) on both to account for the difference in low-end
>response and matched them with RMS.
>
>Below is a link to a QuickTime comparison movie for viewing with
>QuickTime or MPEG Streamclip (Free, cross-platform
><http://www.squared5>http://www.squared5 .com/)
>
><http://tinyurl.>http://tinyurl. com/yewuxwe (13 mb QuickTime movie,
>download only)
>
>A couple of things stand out to me:
>
>One, the significant difference in noise performance one would
>realize using the Telinga Clip-On -> LS-10 combination in a robust
>setting like the urban one you provided compared to a much quieter
>one where a lot of recorder gain is needed.
>
>Two, we can't tell from this comparison how much of the noise stems
>from the Telinga mic and how much stems from the LS-10's mic pre. I
>do note that the noise does seems to be evenly spread across and low
>into the audio spectrum which we've seen with the LS-10's mic pre.
>(Sonogram of the first four clips with the Telinga->LS- 10 combo in
>the middle: <http://tinyurl.>http://tinyurl. com/ygktnr7 )
>
>Someone with a M10, D50, PMD620 or Hi-MD recorder and the new
>Telingas should be able to give us a sense of the self-noise
>performance of Klas' new mics by making a comparison like yours and
>running the low-noise reference mics on portable phantom power supply
>and the Telingas on PIP.
>
>Thanks again for sharing your explorations. Rob D.
>
>=3D =3D =3D
>
>At 7:17 PM +0000 3/24/10, walunit wrote:
>>Hi folks,
>>
>>I received a set of Klas's new Telinga Clip-On omnis yesterday and
>>tried a few experiments and compared a couple of configurations with
>>my MKH M-S rig. Pardon the long post.
>>
>>First, I make no technical conclusions from these tests. I'm posting
>>in the hopes that this is useful to the more technically inclined.
>>Second, and on a more subjective note, these do not sound like
>>"little" mics to me. I am pretty amazed at the Telinga + LS-10
>>combo. I was seeking a reasonably priced, portable way to get into a
>>fresh perspective in my soundscape recordings. With these omnis I
>>can now start to experiment with various boundary techniques, etc.
>>They sound great to my ears! I plan to take both rigs to the ocean
>>next week and can share some more comparisons, etc., from that trip.
>>
>>Notes:
>>The two setups are:
>>1) Olympus LS-10 + Telinga Clip-Ons
>>2) SD 722 + Sennheiser MKH 30/40 M-S mic setup
>>
>>All files were recorded 44.1 kHz and 24-bit. Both systems were set
>>"flat" except whatever intrinsic filtering they may contain. The
>>samples are all encoded to 256 kbps mp3 using Sound Forge 8.
>>Recordings were made north of Kirkland, WA, USA at around 7:00 am on
>>March 24, 2010.
>>
>>The suburban soundscape is dominated by the roar of a distant
>>highway as well as planes, etc. I hope these experiments are still
>>helpful in some way. I tried to get the gain structures close while
>>recording but ended up adding 7.0 dB of gain (in SF) to the 722+MKH
>>rig to make the background WHOOSH approximately match to my ears
>>(the metering on the LS-10 is not fantastic for this but I could
>>have done better with a better noise/reference source). The 722 gain
>>was set to display +61.8dB of gain. This is higher than I normally
>>run the gain and likely into the range where the 722 gain display
>>seems less accurate. I used the 722's internal M-S decoder with M-S
>>set to the mid "*" position. The LS-10 gain was set to approximately
>>"1.5" on the control. The LS-10 mic sense was set to "HIGH" and low
>>cut was set to "OFF."
>>
>>In this first test I have the Telingas clipped to my Sennheiser HD
>>280 Pro headphones. Here's a pic:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ IMG_4207. jpg><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ IMG_4207. jpg
>>
>>I guess Klas will need a different marketing model. The mics are
>>about 10 cm from my head and in a plane about 5 cm below the top of
>>my head. The elements are pointing away from my head. There was very
>>little thought regarding this choice of mic location! The clips just
>>happen to hold very securely to my headphones in this position.
>>Audio:
>>Telingas:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100059_
>>edit.mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100059_ edit.mp3
>>MKH:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T158_edit+
>>7dB.mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T158_edit+ 7dB.mp3
>>
>>In this test I strapped the Telingas to a tree. Here are some pics:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ IMG_4189. jpg><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ IMG_4189. jpg
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ IMG_4191. jpg><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ IMG_4191. jpg
>>From the rear, for perspective. Yes, I am aimed at the house in this
>>test:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ IMG_4194. jpg><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ IMG_4194. jpg
>>
>>For your amusement I intentionally walk around, plug in a fountain,
>>unplug the fountain, and walk a bit more. Audio:
>>Telingas:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100060_ edit_tree.
>>mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100060_ edit_tree. mp3
> >MKH:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T159_edit+
>>7dB.mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T159_edit+ 7dB.mp3
>>
>>For this clip I unplugged the Teingas and strapped the LS-10 to the
>>tree. I left the gain unchanged so it is very quiet (I did not
>>correct the gain in SF).
>>Here's a pic:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ IMG_4195. jpg><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ IMG_4195. jpg
>>LS-10 built-in mics audio:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100062_ edit_built-
>>in_mics.mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi
>>c.com/MKHandTeli ngaOmnis/ LS100062_ edit_built- in_mics.mp3
>>
>>For this final test I brought both rigs into my music room which is
>>fairly quiet. I pointed them the same direction at a stack of foam
>>bass traps. The gain was left unchanged:
>>Telingas:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100063_ edit_quiet.
>>mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ LS100063_ edit_quiet. mp3
>>MKH:
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T160_edit_
>>quiet.mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T160_edit_ quiet.mp3
>>
>>I was surprised by the very high level of "rumble" from the MKH rig
>>so I made sure the heater was off and recorded a bit more "quiet:"
>><<http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T161_edit_ quiet2+7.
>>mp3><http://mikewallmusi>http://mikewallmusi c.com/MKHandTeli
>>ngaOmnis/ T161_edit_ quiet2+7. mp3
>>
>>The RMS is ~3.5 dB lower this time, but still lots of rumble
>>compared to the Telingas+LS- 10. I recall a discussion about
>>intrinsic high-pass in the LS-10 and that may be a big part of the
>>difference. I have done no analysis beyond running SF's "statistics"
>>tool.
>>
>>I hope this was of some interest.
>>Best Regards,
>>Mike
>>
>>
>
>--
>
>
>
>
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