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Re: Re: Need help with Sound Devices 722!

Subject: Re: Re: Need help with Sound Devices 722!
From: Tim Nielsen <>
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 18:00:35 -0700
Good to know. I have a plugin in ProTools that does it, but I didn't=20
know how common it was in other programs.

Tim

On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:58 PM, umashankar wrote:

>
> programs like audition let you convert ms to xy and xy
> to ms without all the confusion.
>
> umashankar
> --- Tim Nielsen <> wrote:
>
> > Well, technically, recording either or is the same
> > as recording both,
> > since you are supposed to be able to convert back
> > and forth no problems.
> >
> > Make sure that the capsules of your mics are lined
> > up in a vertical
> > plane. I mean, not the END of the mics, but where
> > the actual capsule
> > is. On a figure 8, this is usually set back from the
> > front of the
> > mic. This is very important, as MS is playing with
> > phase
> > relationships, so if the capsules aren't right on
> > top of each other,
> > it might mess things up a tiny bit.
> >
> > The answer is no, it's not HARD to go back from XY
> > to MS (XY is in
> > effect what you're recording), but it can get
> > confusing. You'll need
> > more than a stereo editor, since you actually need
> > three tracks to do
> > it.
> >
> > In case you're curious, here's the reverse, how to
> > go from Non-MS
> > tracks to MS (assuming the mid mic is on channel 1,
> > and the side on
> > channel 2):
> >
> > You need three tracks.
> >
> > Put the mid mic on channel 1, panned to the center.
> > Put the side mic channel on BOTH channels 2 and 3.
> > Pan track 2 to the left.
> > Phase flip track 3 and pan it to the right (it HAS
> > to be phase flipped)
> >
> > Now I usually 'link' channels 2 and 3 together, you
> > want them to stay
> > the same level. By adjusting the amount of the
> > 'side' signal into the
> > mix, you effectively adjust the stereo width. An
> > equal relationship
> > is about a 90% image. Less of the side signal will
> > 'tighten' up the
> > image, and no side will give you the mono signal
> > only obviously.
> >
> > So not sure exactly the steps to 'reverse' that to
> > get back the
> > individual channels again, maybe Ed will know. I
> > could figure it out,
> > by my brain hurts.
> >
> > Also be aware that if you use some plugin to flip
> > the phase, and it
> > introduces sample delays, you'll have to compensate
> > on the other
> > channels.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:20 PM, nbioacoustics wrote:
> >
> > > Ed & Tim, Thank you both sooooo much! I think I
> > have it all straight
> > > and figured out in my head now.
> > >
> > > About the going back from L/R to MS, later, is
> > that a really tough
> > > thing to do? (yes or no answer is fine) if so, is
> > there a way that I
> > > can record BOTH in stereo and in MS so that I have
> > both? or am I
> > > asking for too much?
> > >
> > > Natalie :)
> > > --- In  Tim
> > Nielsen <> wrote:
> > > > I would add that unless you have a reason to
> > vary the stereo width
> > > > through the MS matrix on the 722, set your width
> > control to 1:1,
> > > > which I believe now is right up the center. If
> > you turn the bottom
> > > > knob all the way to the left, you'll be in
> > effect putting the mono
> > > > signal on both channels. All the way to the
> > right, and you'll be
> > > > putting the side mic only across both channels.
> > THey've changed this
> > > > since an earlier firmware, but I think that's
> > correct.
> > > >
> > > > Pot 1 adjusts overall levels for both mics, and
> > pot 2 adjust the
> > > > stereo width.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Oct 1, 2005, at 3:29 PM, Ed Anson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Natalie,
> > > > >
> > > > > Your setup should work very well for what
> > you're doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > The linked 1/2+MS decodes the mic inputs to
> > normal (L/R)
> > > stereo, which
> > > > > is probably what you want.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure either about the difference
> > between "monitor AB or
> > > Track
> > > > > AB". But given your linking setup you want to
> > set HP for AB
> > > > > (without MS
> > > > > decoding).
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a bit more general description of your
> > options and how
> > > they
> > > > > work:
> > > > >
> > > > > If you record with input linking set to AB
> > (not MS) then you will
> > > > > record the mid signal (cardioid) to channel A
> > and the side signal
> > > > > (figure 8) to channel B. That requires that
> > you use the MS HP
> > > option
> > > > > when recording and playing back, and also
> > requires that you use
> > > an M/S
> > > > > matrix (decoder) in post to convert it to L/R
> > format for normal
> > > stereo
> > > > > listening. I sometimes do it that way, if I
> > anticipate a need
> > > for more
> > > > > flexibility in adjusting the stereo width.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you record with the MS linking option, the
> > decoded Left
> > > signal goes
> > > > > to channel A and the Right signal goes to
> > channel B. That is,
> > > the 722
> > > > > internally converts from M/S to L/R before
> > recording. In this
> > > case,
> > > > > you
> > > > > want to play back without MS conversion, and
> > you do not need to
> > > do any
> > > > > conversion in post to get normal stereo. [You
> > can, however,
> > > convert it
> > > > > back to M/S in post if you really need to, but
> > that's another
> > > > > conversation.]
> > > > >
> > > > > Until you have a good understanding of how M/S
> > recording works, I
> > > > > suggest that you stick with the MS linking
> > option. That keeps
> > > > > everything simple.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:50 PM, nbioacoustics
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  I have the following setup & questions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  1. 1 to A, and 2 to B;
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  2. linked 1/2 + MS (does this mean that
> > both the tracks and the
> > > > > >  monitoring is decoded into stereo?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  3. HP: Favourite Mode: monitor AB
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  4. playbakc mode: monitor AB or Track AB?
> > does it matter?
> > > aren't
> > > > > they
> > > > > >  the same thing? I guess I don't understand
> > the difference
> > > between a
> > > > > >  track (recorded data?) and a monitor
> > (???)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Natalie :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  --- In  Ed
> > Anson
> > > <>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >  > Natalie,
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Setting up and monitoring M/S recording
> > is one of a few
> > > tricky
> > > > > > things
> > > > > >  > in the 722. It's easy to get it wrong in
> > subtle ways.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > One thing you didn't mention: How is your
> > input linking
> > > set up?
> > > > > > You'll
> > > > > >  > get a different result if you set up
> > unlinked, linked 1/2, or
> > > > > linked
> > > > > >  > 1/2 MS. Any of those settings can be used
> > for M/S recording,
> > > > > but you
> > > > > >  > need to set other things up differently,
> > and work
> > > differently in
> > > > > > post.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > The simplest to work with is often the
> > last (linked 1/2 MS),
> > > > > as it
> > > > > >  > performs the conversion to L/R stereo
> > before recording. In
> > > this
> > > > > > case,
> > > > > >  > you want to monitor A,B (not MS) both for
> > recording and
> > > playback.
> > > > > > [Note
> > > > > >  > that in this mode, the top gain knob
> > controls the record
> > > level
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >  > bottom knob controls stereo width. The
> > latter should
> > > normally be
> > > > > > set to
> > > > > >  > 12 o'clock unless you want special
> > effects.]
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > As an aside: If you record as I
> > suggested, you will have L/R
> > > > > stereo
> > > > > > on
> > > > > >  > your tracks, so listening with MS
> > selected is not
> > > appropriate. In
> > > > > > fact,
> > > > > >  > doing so could result in the symptom you
> > noticed if the
> > > tracks
> > > > > are
> > > > > >  > sufficiently correlated (as would happen
> > if you recorded a
> > > single
> > > > > > sound
> > > > > >  > source near center).
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I hope this helps, and you have much
> > happy recording.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Ed
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > On Oct 1, 2005, at 4:18 PM, nbioacoustics
> > wrote:
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > > Thank you for helping!
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  I understand what you are saying, i
> > think, but to
> > > complicate
> > > > > >  things, I
> > > > > >  > >  am using 1 cardioid mic and 1 figure 8
> > mic, so I need to
> > > > > choose
> > > > > >  the MS
> > > > > >  > >  options (from what I understand).
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  I chose routing: Channel 1 (cardioid)
> > to A
> > > > > >  > >  =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82  Channel 2
> > > > > (figure 8) to B
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  For monitoring with HP, I chose:
> > monitor "A,B (MS)"
> > > > > >  > >  -but when i am monitoring, the LCD
> > icon won't let me
> > > choose
> > > > > "AB
> > > > > > MS",
> > > > > >  > >  only plain "A,B"
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  For playback, I chose: track A,B
> > > > > >  (MS)=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > > > > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  - and the LCD let's me play it in "AB
> > MS"
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  I still get the playback in the left
> > headphone only.
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  I don't understand what I'm doing
> > wrong...
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  Natalie :)
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  --- In
> >  Tim Nielsen
> > > > > <>
> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > >  > >  > On the 722, I think there are two
> > different modes for
> > > > > > headphone,
> > > > > >  > > one=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > for recording, and one for playback.
> > You'll see next
> > > to the
> > > > > >  > > headphone=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > symbol on the unit on the display,
> > it will display
> > > what you
> > > > > > are=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > hearing in the headphones. The
> > selector knob on the
> > > right
> > > > > side
> > > > > >  > > should=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > cycle through the available
> > headphone presets, when
> > > > > recording,=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > depending on the mode you're
> > recording in, you'll
> > > probably
> > > > > > want it
> > > > > >  > > in=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > 1,2 mode, where it puts input 1 on
> > the left, and 2 on
> > > the
> > > > > > right.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > On playback, it should be I think
> > A,B where track A
> > > is on
> > > > > the
> > > > > >  left=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > and B on the right? If it's saying
> > just 1 or A, then
> > > you're
> > > > > > only=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > hearing one track.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > See if that helps. I know the manual
> > explains it
> > > pretty well
> > > > > > too.=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > There are basically 'headphone
> > favorites' that you
> > > can store
> > > > > > for=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > recording and playback. It's in the
> > menu, and you can
> > > store
> > > > > > which=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > headphones modes you want to be
> > active on the right side
> > > > > knob.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > But actually what is probably
> > happening is that your mic
> > > > > input
> > > > > > is=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > only going to channel 1, and while
> > recording, you're
> > > > > listening
> > > > > > to=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > channel 1 (the headphones will play
> > it as mono). On
> > > > > playback,
> > > > > >  it's=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > probably set to play back A,B, and
> > since there is no
> > > second
> > > > > >  > > channel,=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > you'll hear only in the left.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > Make sure you understand the mic
> > input routing of the
> > > 722.
> > > > > >  > > Basically,=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > it's a square, with inputs 1 and 2
> > on top, and record
> > > > > tracks A
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >  > > B=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > on the bottom. So you link incoming
> > track 1 to record
> > > > > track A,
> > > > > >  > > input=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > track 2 to track B. It's possible to
> > input track 1 to A
> > > > > AND B,
> > > > > >  or I=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > think both inputs 1 and 2 to A AND
> > B, so make sure
> > > you're
> > > > > > assign
> > > > > >  > > them=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > correctly for your mics.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > It bit me once, somehow input 2 got
> > turned off, so I was
> > > > > only=C3=82
> > > > > >  > >  > recording mono.
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > Tim
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > On Oct 1, 2005, at 12:30 PM,
> > nbioacoustics wrote:
> > > > > >  > >  >
> > > > > >  > >  > > Hi there,
> > > > > >  > >  > > I just bought a 722, which I plan
> > on using in
> > > Hawaii in 3
> > > > > >  weeks to
> > > > > >  > >  > > record biophony for a scientific
> > study of
> > > > > biodiversity.=C3=82  I
> > > > > > am
> > > > > >  > > used to
> > > > > >  > >  > > working with plants, so I don't
> > know much about this
> > > > > stuff.
> > > > > > Help!
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > > I'm trying to figure out why when
> > I am recording, I
> > > can
> > > > > hear
> > > > > >  > > sounds in
> > > > > >  > >  > > both headphones, but then when I
> > playback my
> > > recording, I
> > > > > >  only get
> > > > > >  > >  > > sound out of the left headphone...
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > > Does anyone have the patience to
> > help me out?
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > > Thanks.
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > >  > >  > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > >  > >  > > A listening room is not nature."
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> > > > > >  > >  A listening room is not nature."
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > >  Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > >  A listening room is not nature."
> > > > > >  Klas Strandberg
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The University of NSW School of Computer and Engineering takes no responsibility for the contents of this archive. It is purely a compilation of material sent by many people to the naturerecordists mailing list. It has not been checked for accuracy nor its content verified in any way. If you wish to get material removed from the archive or have other queries about the archive e-mail Andrew Taylor at this address: andrewt@cse.unsw.EDU.AU