Bill you wrote:
>Creative's response to Graham says that MP3 recording duration
>on the Nomad Jukebox is now limited only by the HD size , so it
>would be interesting to know if the 3 hr limit on *.wav file
>recording you noted has also been altered. I was told by a
>knowledgeable user that one early Jukebox iteration could
>record *.WAV files with no duration limit and the limit was added
>later.
I just downloaded the most recent JB3 firmware (version 1.40.06p). They hav=
e
indeed modified the recording options. The previous 10hr limit per track ha=
s
been altered only in the 'Wired Remote' recording mode. The other modes
(Line-In, Mic-In, Mic-In (Mono) and Optical-In) still have the 3 / 10 hr li=
mit
per track.
However, there is also a new 'Continuous' recording option where very long
recording sessions are automatically divided into separate tracks. So, it
seems that the limitation is now the HD size for continuous and unatended
recording. That new mode seems to be appropriate for Graham's application.=
>For Graham, it should be simple enough to abandon the light,
>expensive rechargeable lithium JB3 battery packs and assemble
>a bulkier external battery pack with a runtime well in excess of
>ten hours, using either NiMH or a gelled lead acid batteries,
>voltage regulated as needed.
Yes, that should be possible. However, the JB3 manual says that the externa=
l
power supply should only be used for charging the battery. Operating the
device at the same time should be avoided due to heat problems. Though, I o=
ften
use the device (for playback) with the external power supply connected and
have never seen any problems with such a set-up.
The nominal external supply voltage is 5V. Perhaps it would be possible to
use 6V lead acid batteries too. However, that increased voltage may further
push the internal voltage regulator into heat problems (the voltage of the
internal lithium ion battery is 3.6V only). A simple solution would be to s=
witch
one or two diodes (e.g. 1N4004) between the external battery and DC in. Eac=
h
of these diodes would decrease the voltage by about 0.7V.
Due to the lower costs I would recommend lead-acid batteries instead of NiM=
H
batteries. The higher weight of lead-acid batteries would be no problem for
such a stationary set-up.
>Thanks for the point about the PC-only code on the Neuros web
>site.In an email exchange with their chief technical officer
>about firmware modification, I learned they receive inquiries from
>academics moderately frequently. They are open to collaboration
>with outside programmers (avoiding 'reverse engineering' to
>achieve a non-standard operation) or doing a custom package. I
>indicated there might be a niche market in research and
>avocational nature recordists and pointed them to various
>bioacoustic web sites.
Yes, this is a very limited niche market that is probably not very
attractive to such a company. If they want want to avoid a losing deal they=
had to
sell thousands of these device. For a third-party company it would be perha=
ps
more appropriate to design a completely new device optimized for that purpo=
se.
Unfortunately, such a device would cost significantly more than a mass-mark=
et
jukebox.
>With different questions in mind and the desire to install several
>bat monitoring units over a large area that would be visited and
>downloaded infrequently, we 've assembled several units with
>the Anabat detector and storage zcaim, which records highly
>'compressed' representations (frequency division with no
>amplitude retention) of acoustic events (including bird, bat and
>insect calls) on compact flash cards. Daily start and stop times
>are programmed on the card and power drain is such that a five
>watt solar panel with a 1.3 Ahr battery will run the system most
>of the year in open western N. Am. habitats.
...
>We need different tools for different tasks and options
>(storage density , device power requirements, unit cost) are
>gradually improving, but this seemed an affordable approach to
>exploring variability and seasonal patterns of bat acoustic activity.
I agree, the Anabat system seems to be an good and acceptable
compromise between functionality and unit cost for monitoring
bat acoustic activity.
Regards,
Raimund
> Raimund,
> Creative's response to Graham says that MP3 recording duration=20
> on the Nomad Jukebox is now limited only by the HD size , so it
> would be interesting to know if the 3 hr limit on *.wav file
> recording you noted has also been altered. I was told by a
> knowledgeable user that one early Jukebox iteration could
> record *.WAV files with no duration limit and the limit was added
> later.
>
> For Graham, it should be simple enough to abandon the light,
> expensive rechargeable lithium JB3 battery packs and assemble
> a bulkier external battery pack with a runtime well in excess of
> ten hours, using either NiMH or a gelled lead acid batteries,
> voltage regulated as needed. I think I saw something on
> www.nomadness.net about the acceptable voltage input range,
> but it might be simpler to test it than find the discussion.
>
> Thanks for the point about the PC-only code on the Neuros web
> site.In an email exchange with their chief technical officer about
> firmware modification, I learned they receive inquiries from
> academics moderately frequently. They are open to collaboration
> with outside programmers (avoiding 'reverse engineering' to
> achieve a non-standard operation) or doing a custom package. I
> indicated there might be a niche market in research and
> avocational nature recordists and pointed them to various
> bioacoustic web sites.
>
> Your point about the possibly short life of even well executed,
> innovative devices is painfully true. I've encountered several
> discussions that suggest the Nomad JB3 is close to end-of -life
> (much bulkier than most of the current competing MP3 units, not
> many potential purchasers care about uncompressed audio,
> etc.).
>
> Having grappled with recording bat audio and ultrasound with
> different PCMCIA 350-500 kHz AtoD converters, laptops and
> software packages, your Avisoft integrated system (USB
> hardware, software with selective event capture) is a very
> appealing concept. I would certainly like to purchase one or
> more for high resolution recording and analysis when funds
> permit.
>
> With different questions in mind and the desire to install several=20
> bat monitoring units over a large area that would be visited and
> downloaded infrequently, we 've assembled several units with
> the Anabat detector and storage zcaim, which records highly
> 'compressed' representations (frequency division with no
> amplitude retention) of acoustic events (including bird, bat and
> insect calls) on compact flash cards. Daily start and stop times=20
> are programmed on the card and power drain is such that a five
> watt solar panel with a 1.3 Ahr battery will run the system most
> of the year in open western N. Am. habitats.
>
> The simplified acoustic representation means that a 512 Mb CF
> card is adequate to record 1000-2500 multi-pulse bat 'passes'
> per night (e.g., lowland river edge in summer) for more than six
> weeks. The practical constraint on download intervals is set by=20
> habitat linked concerns about data loss from damage and
> biofouling (such as curious bears or wasp nests on microphone
> grids). We need different tools for different tasks and options
> (storage density , device power requirements, unit cost) are
> gradually improving, but this seemed an affordable approach to
> exploring variability and seasonal patterns of bat acoustic activity.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In
> wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > Thanks for your note. I have to admit that I've never used the
> Nomad JB3 for
> > long-term recording. I use it primarily for listening music. I have
> copied
> > my entire music CD collection (150 albums, MP3-encoded at
> 256 kbps) onto it's
> > hard drive and I'm very satisfied with it's performance for that
> application
> > (it has been designed for that purpose).
> >
> > You are correct, the JB3 has an additional limitation on the
> recording time
> > for a single file. I just checked my JB3 (firmware version
> 1.32.02p). In
> > uncompressed .WAV file recording, the maximum duration is 3
> hours (independently
> > of the sample rate and the number of channels). In the .MP3
> recording mode,
> > the maximum duration is 10 hours (the selected bit rate does
> not matter).
> >
> > Thanks for the link to the Neuros HD backpack system. That
> seems to be
> > indeed an interesting alternative to the Nomad JB3.
> >
> > As far as I understand, the source code provided on their
> website is the
> > source code for the NSM PC software only =96 not the firmware
> that resides inside
> > the device. In fact, it would be extremely difficult to edit the
> firmware of
> > the device. That would require detailed and very special
> knowledge. So, even
> > a well-trained engineer would require several months (or even
> years) to
> > become familiar with the hard- and firmware architecture. And
> there would be the
> > potential risk that all the efforts get lost because the production
> of the
> > device may expire suddenly...
> >
> > So, in my opinion it is an illusion to get a cheap and
> full-functional
> > recording device for such special applications as long-term bat
> sound recording.
> >
> > Currently, the best solution for long-term monitoring of animal
> sounds would
> > be to use a PC -based system. In conjunction with appropriate
> software (e.g.
> > Avisoft-RECORDER http://www.avisoft.info/recorder.htm), it
> would be possible
> > to set-up the system for a sound-activated recording mode.
> Special
> > techniques (amplitude thresholds in pre-defined frequency
> intervals and entropy
> > filters in conjunction with a pre-recording buffer) can help to
> reject unwanted
> > sounds from triggering.
> >
> > The main drawback of using a continuous recording mode
> would be the huge
> > amounts of data that have to be analyzed afterwards.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Raimund
> >
> >
> > > I've been interested in (relatively) inexpensive HD based
> > > recorders for similar multi-station audio range monitoring
> > > purposes (birds, downconverted bat audio) and so have
> > > followed Nomad JB3 disussions on various net venues. My
> > > impression (with no hands-on experience ... which Raimund
> can
> > > perhaps correct) is that the JB3, at least in more recent
> firmware
> > > versions which offer record level controls and the like, may
> have
> > > a firmware limit of about two hours on unattended recording
> > > duration (independent of the 2 gb wav file maximum).
> > >
> > > As far as I know, the Neuros HD backpack system
> (20,30,40gb)
> > > (http://www.neurosaudio.com/) is the only other MP3
> oriented
> > > HD recorder which is also capable of uncompressed *.wav
> > > recording from line in (part of a recent firmware upgrade, so
> not
> > > listed in their product pdf). It is more appealing in some
> respects
> > > than the JB3 in that they apparently use an open firmware
> > > system ( at least some of their code is available on the web
> > > site), encourage programmers and developers, and are
> > > responsive to user feedback . Perhaps this is worth a look.=20
> They
> > > are close to implementing timed recording from the built-in
> FM
> > > tuner. With user interest it would be only a moderate step to
> > > implement timed recording from the line-in.
> > >
> > > If you can accept MP3 only HD recording, there are several
> other
> > > options (e.g., Archos).
> > >
> > > Bill Rainey
> > >
> > > --- In "Graham M
> Smith"
> > > <> wrote:
> > > > Raimund,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again, the MP3 option sounds good. I had not
> realised
> > > there was a
> > > > limit to the size of a WAV file.
> > > >
> > > > Graham
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From:
> > > > > Sent: 24 March 2004 20:01
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Nature Recordists] Alternatives to Minidiscs
> - or
> > > bats
> > > > > again
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Graham,
> > > > >
> > > > > as Marty already explained, even a 20 GB disk has a
> huge
> > > capacity. The
> > > > > recording time of 2000 minutes (at 44.1 kHz, stereo)
> would
> > > > > further increase if you
> > > > > used only one channel and a sample rate of only 22 kHz.
> > > Then you would get
> > > > > 8000 minutes (133 hours). However, you should note that
> a
> > > single
> > > > > .WAV file can
> > > > > hold only 2 GB of data.
> > > > >
> > > > > As discussed earlier, it would also be justified to use the
> > > > > compressed .MP3
> > > > > format for recording bat detector output signals. That
> would
> > > > > further increase
> > > > > the recording time. For instance, a moderate 5:1
> > > compression (at 64kbps)
> > > > > would provide 660 hours (4 weeks!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Raimund
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Raimund,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Have you any idea of how many hours of
> > > uncompressed WAV
> > > > > file, the
> > > > > > 20gb and 40gb models will hold - I don't seem able to
> find
> > > that
> > > > > on the web
> > > > > > site.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Graham
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > Sent: 24 March 2004 16:18
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Alternatives to
> Minidiscs
> > > - or bats
> > > > > > > again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Graham,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The 'NOMAD Jukebox 3' by Creative Labs Inc. has a
> line
> > > in connector,
> > > > > > > FireWire interface and also offers uncompressed
> .wav
> > > file recording:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.nomadworld.com/products/Jukebox3
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Raimund
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some may remember the earlier thread on rcording
> > > bats, where my
> > > > > > > recording
> > > > > > > > problems looked as if they would be solved by the
> new
> > > Hi-MD
> > > > > recorders,
> > > > > > > > However, we need these (20 in all) in April/early May
> > > and it seems
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > release has been delayed until June.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So rather annoyingingly, I am going to have to buy
> an
> > > alternative.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is any one aware of which MP3 juke box type
> devices
> > > have a line in,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > record as wve files, the output from the bat
> detectors.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just so I can have this an option as I look at the
> > > alternatives.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Many thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Graahm S
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > > > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > > > > A listening room is not nature."
> > > > > > > > Klas Strandberg
> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > +++ NEU bei GMX und erstmalig in Deutschland:
> > > T=DCV-gepr=FCfter
> > > > > > > Virenschutz +++
> > > > > > > 100% Virenerkennung nach Wildlist. Infos:
> > > > > http://www.gmx.net/virenschutz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > > > A listening room is not nature."
> > > > > > > Klas Strandberg
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.691 (20040324) Information
> > > __________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus
> system.
> > > > > > > http://www.nod32.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > > A listening room is not nature."
> > > > > > Klas Strandberg
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > +++ NEU bei GMX und erstmalig in Deutschland:
> > > T=DCV-gepr=FCfter
> > > > > Virenschutz +++
> > > > > 100% Virenerkennung nach Wildlist. Infos:
> > > http://www.gmx.net/virenschutz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > > > A listening room is not nature."
> > > > > Klas Strandberg
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________ NOD32 1.692 (20040324) Information
> > > __________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > > > > http://www.nod32.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Microphones are not ears,
> > > Loudspeakers are not birds,
> > > A listening room is not nature."
> > > Klas Strandberg
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=20
> > >
> >
> > --
> > +++ NEU bei GMX und erstmalig in Deutschland:
> T=DCV-gepr=FCfter Virenschutz +++
> > 100% Virenerkennung nach Wildlist. Infos:
> http://www.gmx.net/virenschutz
>
>
>
>
> "Microphones are not ears,
> Loudspeakers are not birds,
> A listening room is not nature."
> Klas Strandberg
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>=20
>
--
+++ NEU bei GMX und erstmalig in Deutschland: T=DCV-gepr=FCfter Virenschutz=
+++
100% Virenerkennung nach Wildlist. Infos: http://www.gmx.net/virenschutz
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