We seem to be trying to answer a simple yes/no question here about whether
twitchers/listers/photographers/birders/etc are responsible birders or not. Of
course it's not that black and white - I'm guessing most are responsible, and
some aren't, and that that's what Denise meant.
Peter Shute
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus
> On Behalf Of Greg Little
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2015 1:03 PM
> To: 'Kev Lobotomi'; 'Denise Goodfellow'; 'Chris Charles'
> Cc: 'birding-aus'
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>
> Kevin
>
> Without targeting Denise, who does a lot of good work for the
> environment and her community, I agree with you. For some
> silly reason listers/tickers seem to be maligned by a lot of
> others in the birding community. I see many birders with good
> lists who deny being listers. I know listers/tickers who are
> superb, knowledgeable birders and conservationists etc with
> nothing to be ashamed of. My suggestion to those
> non-listers/tickers is "get over it".
>
> Greg Little
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus
> On Behalf Of Kev Lobotomi
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2015 11:19 AM
> To: Denise Goodfellow; Chris Charles
> Cc: birding-aus
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>
> Hi Denise
> It's unfortunate that you persist with this continued bashing
> of bird watchers (who are to the most part to a lesser &
> greater degree listers). We do a lot more good than bad.
> There are bad eggs that spoil it for everyone else. But the
> conservation push would be no where near as great if birders
> weren't involved. Many more birds & other animals would have
> become extinct.
> It's only through interest & education that we have things
> like national parks & reserves & the protection of birds.
> Bird watchers are amongst the most intelligent people I have
> met & they for the most part love the science of the whole
> thing also & are quite happy to partake in surveys & give any
> knowledge they have so that birds can be protected. There are
> photographers who do the wrong thing, & sometimes twitchers
> too, but these incidences are small compared to amount of
> good we do. I would contend with the advent of digital
> photography it has now reduced the need for collecting birds,
> because the quality of the photographs are so good that you
> can see just about everything you need to see externally on a
> bird. Digital photography is an incredible tool that we can
> use for good, because the more we know about the bird, the
> more we can do to help protect it.
>
> I would contend that you wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for
> the amazing amount of interest that birdwatchers & other
> people interested in the natural world have generated, and
> this list includes listers! I would also argue that
> ecotourism probably effects the habitat of animals, because
> by necessity it introduces people into the habitat of often
> rare animals & in areas of pristine wilderness. If humans are
> going to be there, especially in numbers, then the facilities
> have to be there & the habitat has to suffer.
> It probably has a much greater effect on the ecosystem than
> any twitcher or photographer could ever cause. They are at
> least in and out & mostly leave barely any footprint.
> Ecotourism means buildings, roads, & all kinds of facilities,
> great big crevices in the environment.
>
> Kevin Bartram
>
>
> > From:
> > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:43:24 +0930
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
> > CC:
> >
> > Sorry Charles, I have to disagree with you on empathy. To
> lister for
> example birding is a sport, competition, or "non-lethal"
> hunting, as Moore, Scott and Moore (2008) have described it
> - you yourself have used the term "quarry".
> >
> > David Sibley, famous US birder once said that a lot of the things
> > that
> "excite" birders "are bad for the birds." Indeed birding as
> 'sport' appears to have been a reason for the establishment
> of the American Birding Association, and in my decades of
> birding I've seen nothing to convince me that the situation
> in Australia is any different.
> >
> >
> > Denise Lawungkurr Goodfellow
> >
> > PO Box 71
> > Darwin River, NT, Australia 0841
> > 043 8650 835
> >
> > PhD candidate, Southern Cross University, Lismore, NSW.
> >
> > Founding Member: Ecotourism Australia
> > Nominated by Earthfoot for Condé Nast's International Ecotourism
> > Award,
> 2004.
> >
> > With every introduction of a plant or animal that goes feral this
> continent becomes a little less unique, a little less Australian.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11 Aug 2015, at 2:58 pm, Chris Charles
> <> wrote:
> >
> > > Eric,
> > > No I am not arguing that.
> > > I am saying that it is not a simple binary bullets vs
> bullets case.
> > > Relative to the existing risks, birdwatchers are a lesser risk;
> frequency x impact.
> > >
> > > All birdwatchers have an empathy for their quarry for a
> start. Yes I
> know you can quote the exception but again consider the
> statistical risk.
> > > Mitigating the major risks is in the best interest of the birds.
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > Chris Charles
> > > +61412911184
> > >
> > > Licole Monopods
> > > http://www.licole.com.au <http://www.licole.com.au/>
> > >> On 11 Aug 2015, at 2:57 pm, Eric Jeffrey <> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> There is an obvious fallacy to that argument, which
> should be clear
> once explained.
> > >>
> > >> What you are arguing is that if a species can hang on through 10
> hazards it can hang on through 11. That is like saying if you
> live through 10 bullets, the eleventh can't kill you.
> > >>
> > >> Eric Jeffrey
> > >> Falls Church, VA
> > >> USA
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:50 AM, Chris Charles
> <
> <>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul,
> > >>> Yep just a little irritated too.
> > >>>
> > >>> I understand that the researchers want to keep their
> site free of
> disturbance. I don't have a problem with that.
> > >>> But the implication that birdwatchers are a major concern & are
> discouraged from western Queensland is a bit silly.
> > >>> For a bird that has hung on despite years of cattle, cats, dogs,
> mustering vehicles, roo shooters vehicles, fires,etc, you
> would think that even the most over enthusiastic cack-handed
> birdwatcher would be the least of its worries.
> > >>> Independent finding of other colonies must be a useful.
> > >>>
> > >>> But on the bright side, the sub species of
> 'photographer' hasn't
> > >>> been
> singled out this time!
> > >>> Chris
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Chris Charles
> > >>> +61412911184
> > >>>
> > >>> Licole Monopods
> > >>> http://www.licole.com.au <http://www.licole.com.au/>
> <http://www.licole.com.au/ <http://www.licole.com.au/>>
> > >>>> On 10 Aug 2015, at 11:14 am, Paul Dodd
> <> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes, tremendous news!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As usual, however, the article (twice) mentions hordes of
> > >>>> obsessive
> bird-watchers, initially when discussing John Young's
> original discovery:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "The location was kept secret to protect the population from
> > >>>> poachers
> - the bird is so rare it could fetch hundreds of thousands of
> dollars on the black market - and to avoid an onslaught of
> obsessive bird watchers who, without realising, could present
> equal danger to the fragile habitat."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And again, with an apparent quote from Steve Murphy:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Hours from the nearest neighbouring property, the
> land space is
> > >>>> so
> vast, it's hard to imagine anyone being so lucky as to find
> the bird without expert knowledge but Dr Murphy said it would
> not stop obsessive bird watchers and poachers from trying."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've never considered myself particularly thin-skinned, so I
> > >>>> wonder
> if it's just me - but this attitude is really starting to irritate me.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anyway, I'll leave that for now. Since the gist of the
> article is
> that Bush Heritage Australia is leading the conservation
> effort for the Night Parrot (initially at the request of the
> farmer on whose land JY found and photographed the bird), it
> might be best to look at their web site.
> There is a great section on the bird and the recovery efforts
> and also some video of the release of the captured bird.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Here is a link to the Bush Heritage site:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> http://www.bushheritage.org.au/what_we_do/species_protection/n
> ight-parrot
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And, in case the link gets truncated, here is a
> shortened version
> > >>>> of
> the link:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://bit.ly/1IRA2WL
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul Dodd
> > >>>> Docklands, Victoria
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Birding-Aus
> On
> Behalf Of Murray Lord
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, 10 August 2015 6:33 AM
> > >>>> To:
> > >>>> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Australian today has a story about the first Night
> Parrot to
> > >>>> have
> been captured by researchers. If you're not a subscriber,
> try a Google News search for "Looking for a Night Parrot in a
> Haystack?"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Murray
> > >>>> <HR>
> > >>>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > >>>> <BR>
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> > >>>> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > >>>> </HR>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <HR>
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> > >>>
> > >>> <HR>
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