The simplest answer, Peter, is that most are good, and some are bad. Those that
are bad are, generally, ineducable, and no amount of ranting an frothing at the
mouth is going to change their behaviour. This argument comes up regularly,
with the same people voicing the same opinions. Waste of electrons really.
Carl Clifford
> On 12 Aug 2015, at 1:21 pm, Peter Shute <> wrote:
>
> We seem to be trying to answer a simple yes/no question here about whether
> twitchers/listers/photographers/birders/etc are responsible birders or not.
> Of course it's not that black and white - I'm guessing most are responsible,
> and some aren't, and that that's what Denise meant.
>
> Peter Shute
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Birding-Aus
>> On Behalf Of Greg Little
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2015 1:03 PM
>> To: 'Kev Lobotomi'; 'Denise Goodfellow'; 'Chris Charles'
>> Cc: 'birding-aus'
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> Without targeting Denise, who does a lot of good work for the
>> environment and her community, I agree with you. For some
>> silly reason listers/tickers seem to be maligned by a lot of
>> others in the birding community. I see many birders with good
>> lists who deny being listers. I know listers/tickers who are
>> superb, knowledgeable birders and conservationists etc with
>> nothing to be ashamed of. My suggestion to those
>> non-listers/tickers is "get over it".
>>
>> Greg Little
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Birding-Aus
>> On Behalf Of Kev Lobotomi
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2015 11:19 AM
>> To: Denise Goodfellow; Chris Charles
>> Cc: birding-aus
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>>
>> Hi Denise
>> It's unfortunate that you persist with this continued bashing
>> of bird watchers (who are to the most part to a lesser &
>> greater degree listers). We do a lot more good than bad.
>> There are bad eggs that spoil it for everyone else. But the
>> conservation push would be no where near as great if birders
>> weren't involved. Many more birds & other animals would have
>> become extinct.
>> It's only through interest & education that we have things
>> like national parks & reserves & the protection of birds.
>> Bird watchers are amongst the most intelligent people I have
>> met & they for the most part love the science of the whole
>> thing also & are quite happy to partake in surveys & give any
>> knowledge they have so that birds can be protected. There are
>> photographers who do the wrong thing, & sometimes twitchers
>> too, but these incidences are small compared to amount of
>> good we do. I would contend with the advent of digital
>> photography it has now reduced the need for collecting birds,
>> because the quality of the photographs are so good that you
>> can see just about everything you need to see externally on a
>> bird. Digital photography is an incredible tool that we can
>> use for good, because the more we know about the bird, the
>> more we can do to help protect it.
>>
>> I would contend that you wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for
>> the amazing amount of interest that birdwatchers & other
>> people interested in the natural world have generated, and
>> this list includes listers! I would also argue that
>> ecotourism probably effects the habitat of animals, because
>> by necessity it introduces people into the habitat of often
>> rare animals & in areas of pristine wilderness. If humans are
>> going to be there, especially in numbers, then the facilities
>> have to be there & the habitat has to suffer.
>> It probably has a much greater effect on the ecosystem than
>> any twitcher or photographer could ever cause. They are at
>> least in and out & mostly leave barely any footprint.
>> Ecotourism means buildings, roads, & all kinds of facilities,
>> great big crevices in the environment.
>>
>> Kevin Bartram
>>
>>
>>> From:
>>> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:43:24 +0930
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>>> CC:
>>>
>>> Sorry Charles, I have to disagree with you on empathy. To
>> lister for
>> example birding is a sport, competition, or "non-lethal"
>> hunting, as Moore, Scott and Moore (2008) have described it
>> - you yourself have used the term "quarry".
>>>
>>> David Sibley, famous US birder once said that a lot of the things
>>> that
>> "excite" birders "are bad for the birds." Indeed birding as
>> 'sport' appears to have been a reason for the establishment
>> of the American Birding Association, and in my decades of
>> birding I've seen nothing to convince me that the situation
>> in Australia is any different.
>>>
>>>
>>> Denise Lawungkurr Goodfellow
>>>
>>> PO Box 71
>>> Darwin River, NT, Australia 0841
>>> 043 8650 835
>>>
>>> PhD candidate, Southern Cross University, Lismore, NSW.
>>>
>>> Founding Member: Ecotourism Australia
>>> Nominated by Earthfoot for Condé Nast's International Ecotourism
>>> Award,
>> 2004.
>>>
>>> With every introduction of a plant or animal that goes feral this
>> continent becomes a little less unique, a little less Australian.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11 Aug 2015, at 2:58 pm, Chris Charles
>>> <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Eric,
>>>> No I am not arguing that.
>>>> I am saying that it is not a simple binary bullets vs
>> bullets case.
>>>> Relative to the existing risks, birdwatchers are a lesser risk;
>> frequency x impact.
>>>>
>>>> All birdwatchers have an empathy for their quarry for a
>> start. Yes I
>> know you can quote the exception but again consider the
>> statistical risk.
>>>> Mitigating the major risks is in the best interest of the birds.
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>> Chris Charles
>>>> +61412911184
>>>>
>>>> Licole Monopods
>>>> http://www.licole.com.au <http://www.licole.com.au/>
>>>>> On 11 Aug 2015, at 2:57 pm, Eric Jeffrey <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an obvious fallacy to that argument, which
>> should be clear
>> once explained.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you are arguing is that if a species can hang on through 10
>> hazards it can hang on through 11. That is like saying if you
>> live through 10 bullets, the eleventh can't kill you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric Jeffrey
>>>>> Falls Church, VA
>>>>> USA
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:50 AM, Chris Charles
>> <
>> <>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>> Yep just a little irritated too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand that the researchers want to keep their
>> site free of
>> disturbance. I don't have a problem with that.
>>>>>> But the implication that birdwatchers are a major concern & are
>> discouraged from western Queensland is a bit silly.
>>>>>> For a bird that has hung on despite years of cattle, cats, dogs,
>> mustering vehicles, roo shooters vehicles, fires,etc, you
>> would think that even the most over enthusiastic cack-handed
>> birdwatcher would be the least of its worries.
>>>>>> Independent finding of other colonies must be a useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But on the bright side, the sub species of
>> 'photographer' hasn't
>>>>>> been
>> singled out this time!
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Charles
>>>>>> +61412911184
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Licole Monopods
>>>>>> http://www.licole.com.au <http://www.licole.com.au/>
>> <http://www.licole.com.au/ <http://www.licole.com.au/>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Aug 2015, at 11:14 am, Paul Dodd
>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, tremendous news!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As usual, however, the article (twice) mentions hordes of
>>>>>>> obsessive
>> bird-watchers, initially when discussing John Young's
>> original discovery:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The location was kept secret to protect the population from
>>>>>>> poachers
>> - the bird is so rare it could fetch hundreds of thousands of
>> dollars on the black market - and to avoid an onslaught of
>> obsessive bird watchers who, without realising, could present
>> equal danger to the fragile habitat."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And again, with an apparent quote from Steve Murphy:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Hours from the nearest neighbouring property, the
>> land space is
>>>>>>> so
>> vast, it's hard to imagine anyone being so lucky as to find
>> the bird without expert knowledge but Dr Murphy said it would
>> not stop obsessive bird watchers and poachers from trying."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've never considered myself particularly thin-skinned, so I
>>>>>>> wonder
>> if it's just me - but this attitude is really starting to irritate me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I'll leave that for now. Since the gist of the
>> article is
>> that Bush Heritage Australia is leading the conservation
>> effort for the Night Parrot (initially at the request of the
>> farmer on whose land JY found and photographed the bird), it
>> might be best to look at their web site.
>> There is a great section on the bird and the recovery efforts
>> and also some video of the release of the captured bird.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is a link to the Bush Heritage site:
>> http://www.bushheritage.org.au/what_we_do/species_protection/n
>> ight-parrot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, in case the link gets truncated, here is a
>> shortened version
>>>>>>> of
>> the link:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://bit.ly/1IRA2WL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul Dodd
>>>>>>> Docklands, Victoria
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Birding-Aus
>> On
>> Behalf Of Murray Lord
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 10 August 2015 6:33 AM
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot captured and videoed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Australian today has a story about the first Night
>> Parrot to
>>>>>>> have
>> been captured by researchers. If you're not a subscriber,
>> try a Google News search for "Looking for a Night Parrot in a
>> Haystack?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Murray
>>>>>>> <HR>
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