Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2

[Ian May <>]

Thanks Peter.  The line should read "5 attachments including two bands"

Peter Shute wrote:

> Is there any chance we could see the photo of the wader with five flags, Ian? 
> What species was it?
>
> Can anyone tell me what the allowable limit is?
>
> Peter Shute
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>  
>
> > On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:03 pm, "Ian May" <> wrote:
> >
> > We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter
> > which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save any
> > bird.
> >
> > As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call
> > playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird banding,
> > canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like comparing
> > being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack truck.
> >
> > Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two
> > bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a photograph
> > circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper chicks.  It
> > might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an endangered
> > small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How
> > can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More likely,
> > these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
> >
> > Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when
> > repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.
> > Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While
> > obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of
> > these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and
> > leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a
> > coincidence?   I don't think so.
> >
> > A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to
> > remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been
> > leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with
> > numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule
> > and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
> >
> > Ian May
> > St Helens Tasmania
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > g and Val Clancy wrote:
> >
> >    
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think
> > > carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I
> > > see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from
> > > banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched
> > > the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds
> > > and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough
> > > to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my
> > > thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really
> > > need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at
> > > people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs that
> > > are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that some
> > > people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and this has
> > > coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird suffers
> > > from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and humane
> > > activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my banding
> > > and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not like
> > > birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like Martin,
> > > please find out all you can about the positives before condemning the
> > > people who are giving large amounts of their own time and money to
> > > research the birds so that they can be saved.  The winter movement of
> > > birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, Striated Pardalotes and
> > > other species from Tasmania and southern Australia to the north coast
> > > of New South Wales and southern Queensland is only now being
> > > recognised.  We need more banders to track these movements not less
> > > banding.  Remember banders will only ever band a small percentage of
> > > the population of any species but that percentage can provide
> > > essential data that cannot be gathered by observation alone.  It was
> > > banding that proved that the formerly recognised two species of
> > > Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were in fact the one species but
> > > one type was of Tasmanian origin and the other of local origin.  My
> > > banding research on the Eastern Osprey, Black-necked Stork, Beach
> > > Stone-curlew and Australian Pied Oystercatcher and others has provided
> > > essential data required for the management of these threatened
> > > species.  Banding is not the problem it is an important part of the
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > Dr Greg. P. Clancy
> > > Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
> > > | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
> > > | 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
> > > http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
> > > http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
> > > To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ;
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
> > > Reserve take 2
> > >
> > > this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just
> > > from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into
> > > banding.
> > >
> > > one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings
> > > could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  a
> > > species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
> > > one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in
> > > Australia??
> > > of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever
> > > else we believe this race may winter...
> > > I truly wonder???
> > >
> > > any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > martin cachard,
> > > cairns
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >      
> > >
> > > > From: 
> > > > To: ; 
> > > > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
> > > > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
> > > > Reserve take 2
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A good article that explains quite nicely why we should
> > > > continue banding and why banding schemes are important!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > From: 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
> > > > > Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve
> > > > >          
> > > > take > 2
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about
> > > > >          
> > > > leaving > the
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened
> > > > >          
> > > > before > they
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email
> > > > >          
> > > > to > Harvey
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an
> > > > >          
> > > > excerpt > from
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a
> > > > >          
> > > > few > nets
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years >
> > > > >          
> > > > previously,
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how
> > > > >          
> > > > I > came
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of
> > > > >          
> > > > view > about
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it
> > > > >          
> > > > done?
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a
> > > > >          
> > > > local > bird
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > club will give you a considerable amount of information without
> > > > >          
> > > > putting > the
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I >
> > > > >          
> > > > personally
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
> > > > > vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They
> > > > >          
> > > > were
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western >
> > > > >          
> > > > Treatment
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I >
> > > > >          
> > > > couldn't
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and
> > > > >          
> > > > that > if
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it
> > > > >          
> > > > could > be
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > the difference between life and death for those birds.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous wader counts
> > > > >          
> > > > and > that
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or
> > > > >          
> > > > organizations.
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill
> > > > >          
> > > > or > maim
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Kindest Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Geoff Jones
> > > > >
> > > > > Barra Imaging
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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