Hi all
What fun such a topic can create in the ensuing discussion!!!
Thanks Greg for supporting my proposal that all such drawing of lines is
subjective - yours is at 200 years ago. I am sure many of us can come up
with reasonable arguments for choosing some alternative time.
But what positive effect does eradicating 4 Canada Geese have compared to
the potential negative effect of them possibly breeding. And then compared
to the enormous impact that Starlings and Common Mynahs have had in
displacing "native" species of our birds. Why not spend miuch more effort
on reducing the numbers of Starlings and Mynahs? Because it would have so
little effect!! We cannot "fight" the power of the natural world.
I am not saying that we should just ignore "invasions", but that we should
clearly recognise what we do in response to each one, why we are doing it
(subjective judgement) and what effect it might have compared to some
alternative use of our energies.
To Denise, please note that my use of the word "fittest" was indeed in
brackets - meaning that I certainly do not believe that Europeans were/are
fitter; it was just that they had the guns, grog and diseases on their side.
To Tony, you are right, you still have nobody on your side!
Bob Cook
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Little
Sent: Friday, 14 March 2008 1:01 PM
To: 'Bob Cook'; 'Tony Russell'; 'birding-aus birding-aus'
Subject: Canada Geese
Bob
Yes we can keep going back in time, maybe we should eradicate all native
placental rats and bats that introduced themselves a million years or
more in the past. Same as for our Indigenous brothers, if the English
had not "invaded" it would have been someone else eventually, and I do
not see the Italians apologising to the British for invading that island
2000 years ago. So where does it stop. Lets get real. Of the
approximately 22,000 plants in this country about one tenth of them are
exotic weeds some still being sold in nurseries for any dill to nurture
and then throw over the back fence plus those cultivars encouraged for
agriculture. While I recognise that we are very unlikely to turn back
the clock 200 years we do need to have a stance, we do not have to keep
introducing more weeds (plant or animal) and we can have a policy of
persecution of weeds and eradication of them if possible. Even if we
never beat them philosophically the policy should still apply and I draw
the line at 200 years ago. Simple as that for me.
Greg Little
Greg Little - Principal Consultant
General Flora and Fauna
PO Box 526
Wallsend, NSW, 2287, Australia
Ph 02 49 556609
Fx 02 49 556671
www.gff.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cook
Sent: Friday, 14 March 2008 12:02 PM
To: 'Gregory Little'; 'Tony Russell'; 'birding-aus birding-aus'
Subject: Canada Geese
Greg, Tony
While I am not on Tony's side, I wonder where you draw the line?
Dingoes
are non-native, European humans are not native. Even the aboriginal
people
are non-native (only about 60,000 years). The desire for "preservation"
of
the environment as it was at some chosen point in time is always going
to be
subjective. So who has the right or the "correct" approach to deciding
what
is the chosen time to be?? And for what/whose purpose? Evolution also
includes survival of the fittest, so aboriginal people in Australia
suffer
almost to extinction because European people are "fitter".
I believe that our decisions and actions against "invasive" species is
always going to be subjective on an individual basis and arguments why
it is
right or wrong are also always going to be subjective.
And those who wish to preserve some version of nature frozen at a
particular
time will always fail, because we cannot control what happens in nature.
Bob Cook
Axedale VIC.
-----Original Message-----
From:
On Behalf Of Gregory Little
Sent: Friday, 14 March 2008 11:25 AM
To: 'Tony Russell'; 'birding-aus birding-aus'
Subject: Canada Geese
Tony
And Cane Toads are just harmless toads and Camphor Laurel is a lovely
tree. Am disappointed to read your email. While culling or killing is
unpalatable it is necessary and I am sure the Canada Geese were removed
as humanely as possible. Who cares how. Regarding ferals, of course even
Europeans in Australia are introduced exotics if you look at it one way
but we may also be just a natural self introduction if you look at it
another way. However, when we drag all sorts of non native plants and
animals into an environment, anywhere on the planet, then they are going
to have an impact on that environment if they flourish and some native
plants and animals could potentially be lost and that environment
degraded in ways that are not always obvious. It is not worth the risk
of not nipping something in the bud (removing it) that could potentially
be an environmental problem. I feel the stance should be if it is not
native it does not belong so get rid of it (regardless of how nice it
looks) and have policies for that affect.
Greg Little
Greg Little - Principal Consultant
General Flora and Fauna
PO Box 526
Wallsend, NSW, 2287, Australia
Ph 02 49 556609
Fx 02 49 556671
www.gff.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From:
On Behalf Of Tony Russell
Sent: Friday, 14 March 2008 10:23 AM
To: 'Tony Russell'; 'birding-aus birding-aus'
Subject: Canada Geese
I just wonder how the geese were disposed of. Were they shot, injected,
or what ?
I guess those doing it worked under the charade of "euthanasia" - a
euphemism for killing, just as "culling" is another euphemism for
killing.
Presumably euthanasia and culling are more palatable terms which assuage
the killers' consciences.
Why is it that humans think they have the right, the arrogance, to kill
other life forms ?
I understand the conservation arguments re feral invasion and the
problems this may cause, but we've survived the influx of Cattle Egrets,
Starlings, House Sparrows, Common Miners,etc, and the incursions
Long-billed Corellas are making on the east coast - and Perth now has
quite a good population of these too, and the way Eastern Rosellas have
spread across into the Adelaide area. No great disasters. It's not like
foxes and cats which have destroyed populations of native animals -
these are birds we are talking about, harmless birds.
T.
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