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Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)

Subject: Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)
From: "Rob Danielson" danielson_audio
Date: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:24 am ((PST))
Hi Jeremiah and Klas--
The possible enhancements are much better than I
expected with the spaced omni, binaural and
binaural-like rigs I've tried. I'm mixing only on
speakers and phase issues have not been rampant.
I can monitor the affects on correlation in real
time as I mix.

For broad-bandwidth material like ambient field
recordings, the ability to adjust the tonality of
the sides and middle _separately_ allows one to
do several things one cannot do with traditional
stereo processing: (1) Make the tonal balance
more consistent across the stereo field (2)
Attenuate the bass and lower midrange bandwidths
that tend to bunch and act-up in the middle more
than on the sides. (3) Enhance spatiality by
equalizing the "air" of the mid and upper mid
range that can get lost in the middle of the
stereo field (4) More effectively reduce the
prominence of unwanted sounds that are centered
in the the stereo field.

Those recording in M-S can realize these
techniques by simply placing EQ before the M-S
decode plug.

Rob D.

=3D =3D =3D

>Just a little further -
>
>On principle M-S processing is most effective and predictable on
>phase-coherent / single point stereo, as is produced by Mid-Side, Blumlein=
,
>or XY.  With the two mic capsules separated and thus less phase-cohrerent =
-
>as in Binaural, Spaced Omni, and somewhat ORTF and SASS, there's less of a
>clear "oh yes this is what it does."  Thus its use becomes more an aesthet=
ic
>choice, or a choice particular to a given recording and what sort of image
>you're going for.
>
>There's great info in the Waves S1 manual (I can send PDF if anyone's
>interested, ping me off-list.)
>
>Just re-reading it, and the description of Shuffling is informative.
>
>-jeremiah
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:42 AM, Klas Strandberg <> wrot=
e:
>
>>
>>
>>  jeremiah,
>>
>>  Do you think it would be productive to encode binaural sound into MS
>>  and do the kind of manipulations you describe?
>>  Then back again?
>>
>>  Klas.
>>
>>
>>  At 00:44 2009-12-16, you wrote:
>>  >regarding MS processing:
>>  >
>>  >Izotope's Ozone mastering plug-in contains internal MS dematrix/matrix=
, so
>>  >you can EQ mid and side separately, a-la Rob's technique.
>>  >
>>  >I've been using it here for some other tasks. It's a powerful EQ with =
both
>>  >FIR and "normal" modes, and a matching function which builds a FIR fil=
ter
>>  to
>>  >match one sound's spectrum to another's. Also includes a limiter,
>>  >compressor, and multiband dynamics all in the same plugin instance.
>>  >
>>  >Downsides: relative to other EQs it's processor hungry (I can run mayb=
e
>>  two
>>  >instances on my dual-2ghz mac G5, many more on an Intel mac). Also the
>>  >interface in general is somewhat complex, especially the presets load/=
save
>>  >area. To be expected with so many features I suppose.
>>  >
>>  >It's US$200 which for a professional plug-in is quite reasonable, thou=
gh
>>  >it's obviously MUCH more than using the free Soundhack MS plugs.
>>  >
>>  >Anyway, it's been a valuable addition here and for anyone heavily into=
 MS
>>  >processing it may be worth a look.
>>  >
>>  >(no affiliation with izotope - just an end user.)
>>  >
>>  >-jeremiah
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Rob
>>Danielson <<type%40uwm.edu>>
>>  wrote:
>>  >
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > > At 4:45 PM +0100 12/15/09, Klas Strandberg wrote:
>>  > > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >The hole is a consequence of the two mikes, boosting HF sideways a=
nd
>>  > > >can only (...?) be heard (in a bothersome
>>  > > >way..?) when you record awidespread "sparkle all
>>  > > >around" as when the grain snow hit the frozen
>>  > > >leaves in this almost panorama way.
>>  > > >
>>  > > >A more "common" stereo picture is at the the ending of
>>  > > ><http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3>
>>  > > http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3
>>  > > >where you don=B4t
>>  > > >clearly hear the hole, as there are no audible HF getting boosted
>>  > > >from the sides. Birds are flying between the feeder and a tree at =
the
>  > > > >left, and I don't hear any bothersome change of wing sounds over =
the
>>  area.
>>  > > >I have tried out a prototype where the mic capsules point forward,
>>  > > >not to "shade" themselves, but then I loose some of the "crispines=
s"
>>  > > >that I like and that so easily can be filtered, then also reducing
>>  > > >some of the mic self noise.
>>  > >
>>  > > Of course, all stereo arrays have draw-backs and
>>  > > one's preference can depend on what one considers
>  > > > to be more natural, more striking, more accurate,
>>  > > etc.
>>  > >
>>  > > Some listeners prefer the additional HF contrast
>>  > > between the LEFT and RIGHT speakers because it
>>  > > gives a sense that the sound horizon has more
>>  > > spread. However, even omni mic capsules are
>>  > > slightly treble-centric-- the "center" of their
>>  > > polar pattern is more sensitive to HF than the
>>  > > sides (usually). When the mic capsules are
>>  > > directed out or (opposing) towards the sides, the
>>  > > LEFT speaker and RIGHT speaker contrast is
>>  > > heightened. In directing both capsules straight
>>  > > forward, (oriented perpendicular to a flat
>>  > > boundary or tangential to a spherical or curved
>>  > > one), the center of the field is rendered with
>>  > > more HF emphasis. Moving the capsule diaphragm
>>  > > out of the pressure zone tends to simplify the
>>  > > "cues" as the capsule is no longer in the
>>  > > "pressure zone" that comes with mounting the
>>  > > capsule with the diaphragm flush to the boundary.
>>  > > There are many opinions about the plusses and
>>  > > minus's of capsule orientation. I personally
>>  > > feel, given the effects of the options, that
>>  > > front-facing capsule orientation is more
>>  > > "natural" in that it establishes a "front stage"
>>  > > where sounds become symmetrically darker as they
>>  > > move towards the sides. The head-spacing/timing
>>  > > differences are preserved and there is plenty of
>>  > > LEFT - RIGHT contrast and horizontal spread. (One
>>  > > stereo array with flush-mounted capsules that
>>  > > seems to be an exception is the SASS. I've never
>>  > > been able to do side-by side comparisons with
>>  > > one.)
>>  > >
>>  > > Creating a HF boost in the center of the stereo
>>  > > field has other advantages. Traditional EQ
>>  > > affects center and side tonality _at the same
>>  > > time_. If one uses standard parametric EQ to
>>  > > reduce extra crispness at 4K Hz from hard left
>>  > > and hard right, the crispness/tonality of the
>>  > > center is also lessened. I think better overall
>>  > > side-to-center tonal balance after EQ can be
>>  > > achieved with forward-facing capsule orientation.
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > > >If "State of the Art" measurements + a good middle is required, on=
ly
>>  > > >the best M/S system will do and then we enter into another world, =
you
>>  > > know.
>>  > > >Still, I must say, - I have heard professional M/S recordings whic=
h
>>  > > >have been less "alive" than from binaural and semi-binaural set-up=
's,
>>  > > >some M/S has even been "flat".
>>  > >
>>  > > Some listeners prefer a very EVEN stereo field
>>  > > where the sounds are more closely positioned
>>  > > across the middle. Coincident stereo arrays like
>>  > > X-Y and M-S can do this (though the later needs
>>  > > to be carefully adjusted). These arrays tend* to
>>  > > have less left-right contrast and with the X-Y
>>  > > array, sounds can feel bunched together in the
>>  > > center. With M-S and X-Y there is no timing
>>  > > difference analogous to the spread of the ears
>>  > > and no baffle or boundary cues produced as with
>>  > > our heads. *Note many recordists that use M-S
>>  > > rigs tend to lower the level of the center mic to
>>  > > create more left right contrast.
>>  > >
>>  > > There's another way, in post, to adjust the
>>  > > tonality of the Center and the Sides of the
>>  > > stereo field separately. It involves using "plug
>>  > > ins" in the mixing chain. We first discussed
>>  > > this technique in this list a year or so ago.
>>  > > Here's a screen shot of the chain I've been using:
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  >
>>
>>https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/public/media/MixingChain_EQBetweenM-SPlu=
gs.jpg
>>  > >
>>  > > I've been mixing material generated by a number
>  > > > of stereo arrays over the past few weeks and
>>  > > sometime this technique works very well and other
>>  > > times not. I'm looking for patterns. Rob D.
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >Best wishes from Klas and a snowy Sweden.
>>  > > >
>>  > >
>>  > > --
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >--
>>
>>  >----------------------------------------------------------
>>  >jeremiah moore | SOUND | <jmoore%40northstation=
.net>
>  > >http://www.jeremiahmoore.com/
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >------------------------------------
>>
>>  >
>>  >"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>>  >sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krau=
se
>>  >Yahoo! Groups Links
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
>>  S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
>>  Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
>>  email:  <telinga%40bahnhof.se>
>>  website: www.telinga.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0
>>
>
>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>jeremiah moore | SOUND | 
>http://www.jeremiahmoore.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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