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Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)

Subject: Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)
From: "Klas Strandberg" klasstrandberg
Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:53 am ((PST))
jeremiah,

Do you think it would be productive to encode binaural sound into MS
and do the kind of manipulations you describe?
Then back again?

Klas.

At 00:44 2009-12-16, you wrote:
>regarding MS processing:
>
>Izotope's Ozone mastering plug-in contains internal MS dematrix/matrix, so
>you can EQ mid and side separately, a-la Rob's technique.
>
>I've been using it here for some other tasks.  It's a powerful EQ with bot=
h
>FIR and "normal" modes, and a matching function which builds a FIR filter =
to
>match one sound's spectrum to another's.  Also includes a limiter,
>compressor, and multiband dynamics all in the same plugin instance.
>
>Downsides:  relative to other EQs it's processor hungry (I can run maybe t=
wo
>instances on my dual-2ghz mac G5, many more on an Intel mac).  Also the
>interface in general is somewhat complex, especially the presets load/save
>area.  To be expected with so many features I suppose.
>
>It's US$200 which for a professional plug-in is quite reasonable, though
>it's obviously MUCH more than using the free Soundhack MS plugs.
>
>Anyway, it's been a valuable addition here and for anyone heavily into MS
>processing it may be worth a look.
>
>(no affiliation with izotope - just an end user.)
>
>-jeremiah
>
>
>
>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Rob Danielson <> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > At 4:45 PM +0100 12/15/09, Klas Strandberg wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >The hole is a consequence of the two mikes, boosting HF sideways and
> > >can only (...?) be heard (in a bothersome
> > >way..?) when you record awidespread "sparkle all
> > >around" as when the grain snow hit the frozen
> > >leaves in this almost panorama way.
> > >
> > >A more "common" stereo picture is at the the ending of
> > ><http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3>
> > http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3
> >  >where you don=B4t
> > >clearly hear the hole, as there are no audible HF getting boosted
> > >from the sides. Birds are flying between the feeder and a tree at the
> > >left, and I don't hear any bothersome change of wing sounds over the a=
rea.
> > >I have tried out a prototype where the mic capsules point forward,
> > >not to "shade" themselves, but then I loose some of the "crispiness"
> > >that I like and that so easily can be filtered, then also reducing
> > >some of the mic self noise.
> >
> > Of course, all stereo arrays have draw-backs and
> > one's preference can depend on what one considers
> > to be more natural, more striking, more accurate,
> > etc.
> >
> > Some listeners prefer the additional HF contrast
> > between the LEFT and RIGHT speakers because it
> > gives a sense that the sound horizon has more
> > spread. However, even omni mic capsules are
> > slightly treble-centric-- the "center" of their
> > polar pattern is more sensitive to HF than the
> > sides (usually). When the mic capsules are
> > directed out or (opposing) towards the sides, the
> > LEFT speaker and RIGHT speaker contrast is
> > heightened. In directing both capsules straight
> > forward, (oriented perpendicular to a flat
> > boundary or tangential to a spherical or curved
> > one), the center of the field is rendered with
> > more HF emphasis. Moving the capsule diaphragm
> > out of the pressure zone tends to simplify the
> > "cues" as the capsule is no longer in the
> > "pressure zone" that comes with mounting the
> > capsule with the diaphragm flush to the boundary.
> > There are many opinions about the plusses and
> > minus's of capsule orientation. I personally
> > feel, given the effects of the options, that
> > front-facing capsule orientation is more
> > "natural" in that it establishes a "front stage"
> > where sounds become symmetrically darker as they
> > move towards the sides. The head-spacing/timing
> > differences are preserved and there is plenty of
> > LEFT - RIGHT contrast and horizontal spread. (One
> > stereo array with flush-mounted capsules that
> > seems to be an exception is the SASS. I've never
> > been able to do side-by side comparisons with
> > one.)
> >
> > Creating a HF boost in the center of the stereo
> > field has other advantages. Traditional EQ
> > affects center and side tonality _at the same
> > time_. If one uses standard parametric EQ to
> > reduce extra crispness at 4K Hz from hard left
> > and hard right, the crispness/tonality of the
> > center is also lessened. I think better overall
> > side-to-center tonal balance after EQ can be
> > achieved with forward-facing capsule orientation.
> >
> >
> > >If "State of the Art" measurements + a good middle is required, only
> > >the best M/S system will do and then we enter into another world, you
> > know.
> > >Still, I must say, - I have heard professional M/S recordings which
> > >have been less "alive" than from binaural and semi-binaural set-up's,
> > >some M/S has even been "flat".
> >
> > Some listeners prefer a very EVEN stereo field
> > where the sounds are more closely positioned
> > across the middle. Coincident stereo arrays like
> > X-Y and M-S can do this (though the later needs
> > to be carefully adjusted). These arrays tend* to
> > have less left-right contrast and with the X-Y
> > array, sounds can feel bunched together in the
> > center. With M-S and X-Y there is no timing
> > difference analogous to the spread of the ears
> > and no baffle or boundary cues produced as with
> > our heads. *Note many recordists that use M-S
> > rigs tend to lower the level of the center mic to
> > create more left right contrast.
> >
> > There's another way, in post, to adjust the
> > tonality of the Center and the Sides of the
> > stereo field separately. It involves using "plug
> > ins" in the mixing chain. We first discussed
> > this technique in this list a year or so ago.
> > Here's a screen shot of the chain I've been using:
> >
> >
> >
> https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/public/media/MixingChain_EQBetweenM-SPlu=
gs.jpg
> >
> > I've been mixing material generated by a number
> > of stereo arrays over the past few weeks and
> > sometime this technique works very well and other
> > times not. I'm looking for patterns. Rob D.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Best wishes from Klas and a snowy Sweden.
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>jeremiah moore | SOUND | 
>http://www.jeremiahmoore.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
email: 
website: www.telinga.com









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