FERAL CATS
There is little point agitating for the destruction of feral cats - to make
a vdery bad pun: that cat is already long out of the bag. Nobody but a
prescient few of us true nature-lovers and ecological scientists really care
2. It would take a concerted effort at both federal AND state AND local
government levels - impossible to co-ordinate
3. There are already so many millions of cats out there, in every kind of
habitat except (possibly) the high peaks of the Australian Alps that to
cull by shooting, baiting or any other direct kill method is just not
possible.
The only way we could rid ourselves of this dreadful pest is to use the
same sort of biological control as used with rabbits - with all the dangers
that come with this method (assuming that such a control could be found -
and funded). And, at the same time, ban the keeping of cats as domestic
pets throughout Australia. Sterilisation just isn't good enough - people
ignore the regulation and it's amazing how many litters of kittens a couple
of no-sterilised cats can produce.
Perhaps, using a combination of methods, we could significantly reduce
feral cat numbers - but I doubt it.
I believe this particular pest has already had a significantly adverse
affect on our bird populations, as well as on populations of small mammals
and reptiles. It will continue to do so. We can only hope that at least
some of the more vulnerable bird species will be able to evolve
defence/evasion strategies before they are driven to extinction.
Julie Lake
Tamborine Mountain
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 3:00 AM, <>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Feral Cat Problem (Denise Goodfellow)
> 2. Feral cats (David Clark)
> 3. Re: Feral cats (Denise Goodfellow)
> 4. Feral Cats (calyptorhynchus .)
> 5. Coconut on my Rainbow (Julian Bielewicz)
> 6. Re: Cyclone Marcia (Hannah)
> 7. Re: Coconut on my Rainbow (Mike Carter)
> 8. Backyard Goshawk, Ivanhoe (brian fleming)
> 9. The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night Parrot
> (Carl Clifford)
> 10. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Dave Torr)
> 11. The depth some twichers will go to tick Night Parrots
> (Barney Enders)
> 12. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Richard NOWOTNY)
> 13. Forwarding some abstracts about feral cat research from CSIRO
> Wildlife Research Volume 41(5) (Philip Veerman)
> 14. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Peter Shute)
> 15. feral cats (Stephen)
> 16. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Carl Clifford)
> 17. Re: feral cats (Carl Clifford)
> 18. Night Parrot - tickers and listers (brian fleming)
> 19. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Michael Tarburton)
> 20. FW: Night Parrot - tickers and listers (Tony Russell)
> 21. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Denise Goodfellow)
> 22. Re: Night Parrot - tickers and listers (Denise Goodfellow)
> 23. Night Parrot the ultimate tick (Tony Clarke)
> 24. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Laurie Knight)
> 25. Re: Night Parrot - tickers and listers (Stephen Murray)
> 26. Re: Night Parrot - tickers and listers (Experience the Wild)
> 27. Possible Pectoral Sandpiper - Sydney Olympic Park (& some
> other stuff) (Thomas Wilson)
> 28. Re: The depths some twitchers will go to tick the Night
> Parrot (Andrew Bell)
> 29. Re: Night Parrot - tickers and listers (David Stowe)
> 30. Zoo Australia (Charles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 02:12:13 +0930
> From: Denise Goodfellow <>
> To: David Clark <>
> Cc: birding-aus <>, Ian Boyd
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Feral Cat Problem
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> I?m not sure about Queensland, but the biggest threat to biodiversity in
> the Top End by far, are weeds and an inappropriate fire regime. They
> remove understorey and midstorey leaving wildlife nowhere to hide. Then,
> at least in Kakadu (and probably elsewhere) the cats clean up.
>
> Sure the toads have caused some local extinctions, but their impact is
> minimal compared to the devastation being wrought by these weeds. All were
> brought in either to feed cattle or as contaminants.
>
>
>
> Denise
>
>
> On 19 Feb 2015, at 3:53 pm, David Clark <> wrote:
>
> > Good point Ian, feral cats have an extremely wide range of prey species
> and
> > I'm not sure that the Night Parrot is more important than other
> > endangered/vulnerable species.
> >
> > Of course, it could be argued that Cane Toads are doing more to reduce
> > biodiversity than feral cats and, while I think it is important to tackle
> > the cat menace, it shouldn't be at the expense of tackling the toad
> menace.
> >
> > You're right though, as a group we should be working on getting something
> > done about cats, toads, foxes, and all the other issues that are
> > threatening biodiversity.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Ian Boyd <> wrote:
> >
> >> It is a pity that it takes the slaughter of a Night Parrot by a feral
> cat
> >> to get some people up in in arms baying for action.
> >>
> >> Whether it is the death of Night Parrot or a Peaceful Dove, I feel it is
> >> well passed time that a concerted effort by the birding world be made to
> >> kick the ?powers to be? into action re the out of control feral cat
> >> problem. Hopefully, some of the vocal deep thinkers out there could
> guide
> >> us ordinary every birders into ways we can establish some positive
> action.
> >> Postings on Birding-Aus and blogs etc would not even cause a ripple.
> What
> >> can we do and how can we do it. Rather than rhetoric, let?s be
> pro-active
> >> and get something moving before it is too late; not only for the Night
> >> Parrot but for those little beauties that frequent my backyard.
> >>
> >> Ian Boyd
> >> Townsville
> >> <HR>
> >> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> >> <BR>
> >> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> >> </HR>
> >>
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 22:33:25 +1100
> From: David Clark <>
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Feral cats
> Message-ID:
> <CALdqC2CnF=
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Minister Hunt
>
> I assume that you are aware of the discovery of Night Parrot remains that
> indicate predation by a feral cat. While this loss of one of a newly
> discovered population of Night Parrots is potentially catastrophic, it
> serves to highlight the threat to Australian avifauna and smaller mammals,
> reptiles and amphibians posed by the uncontrolled feral cat population.
>
> It is well past time for the Federal Government to take the lead in
> establishing programs to eliminate or, at least, dramatically reduce the
> feral cat population and ensure that domestic cats are controlled and not
> able to reinforce the feral population.
>
> I would expect the Federal Government to also take a lead role in
> controlling Cane Toads, Foxes, Rabbits, European Carp and pest plants,
> particularly those such as Gamba Grass that have the potential to
> significantly reduce biodiversity.
>
> I look forward to hearing how the Federal Government intends to tackle the
> feral cat problem and other threats to our biodiversity.
>
> Regards
>
> David Clark
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 05:41:46 +0930
> From: Denise Goodfellow <>
> To: David Clark <>
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Feral cats
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Well done, David.
>
> Denise
> Denise Goodfellow
>
>
>
>
> On 19 Feb 2015, at 9:03 pm, David Clark <> wrote:
>
> > Minister Hunt
> >
> > I assume that you are aware of the discovery of Night Parrot remains that
> > indicate predation by a feral cat. While this loss of one of a newly
> > discovered population of Night Parrots is potentially catastrophic, it
> > serves to highlight the threat to Australian avifauna and smaller
> mammals,
> > reptiles and amphibians posed by the uncontrolled feral cat population.
> >
> > It is well past time for the Federal Government to take the lead in
> > establishing programs to eliminate or, at least, dramatically reduce the
> > feral cat population and ensure that domestic cats are controlled and not
> > able to reinforce the feral population.
> >
> > I would expect the Federal Government to also take a lead role in
> > controlling Cane Toads, Foxes, Rabbits, European Carp and pest plants,
> > particularly those such as Gamba Grass that have the potential to
> > significantly reduce biodiversity.
> >
> > I look forward to hearing how the Federal Government intends to tackle
> the
> > feral cat problem and other threats to our biodiversity.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > David Clark
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 07:46:25 +1100
> From: "calyptorhynchus ." <>
> To: "" <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Feral Cats
> Message-ID:
> <CAO5cx3zxNQuDYtKAzDvK88isDHUTmjmsw5Xg6JBUG-F6Arc9=
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I think we all agree that Feral Cats are an enormous problem, especially in
> desert areas, and will lead to the extinction of various species of birds,
> mammals and reptiles in the short and medium terms unless something is
> done.
>
> However, while governments across Australia (whether Liberal or Labor)
> continue to be inflected with the neo-liberal ideology of
>
> governments-should-do-nothing-the-only-important-thing-is-to-have-a-budget-surplus
> then I suggest that it is unlikely that anything will get done. Perhaps as
> well as writing to our MPs and the Minister we should also start to contest
> the notion that governments should do nothing as well in as many contexts
> as we can.
>
> --
> John Leonard
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:55:05 +1000
> From: "Julian Bielewicz" <>
> To: "Aus Birding" <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Coconut on my Rainbow
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Greetings Folks
>
> While updating a number of birdlists for my website [
> www.birdingsouthburnett.com] I came across the Coconut Lorikeet. It
> appears to be conflicting with Rainbow Lorikeet.
>
> The problem also exists in my computer bird journal program but I am
> addressing that issue elsewhere.
>
> It appears that only the IOC makes specific reference to the Coconut as a
> separate species:
> Coconut haematodus
> Rainbow moluccanus
>
> Clements has the Coconut as a ?group? within the Rainbow complex:
>
> Trichoglossus haematodus [haematodus Group] Rainbow Lorikeet (Coconut)
>
> Other consulted authorities [e.g. Lynx, Avibase, etc.] basically concur
> with Clements.
>
> Which brings me to the recently released BARC list:
>
> Trichoglossus moluccanus Coconut
>
> Trichoglossus moluccanus Rainbow
>
>
>
> Am I to take this as indicating that ?Coconut? is merely an alternative
> name for ?Rainbow?; or is it considered a subspecies; or that the two
> having identical scientific names is a mere oversight, a ?typo??
>
> I would be grateful for any and all assistance in fathoming out how my
> Rainbows got onto the coconut shy.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 09:41:47 +1000
> From: Hannah <>
> To: Denise Goodfellow <>
> Cc: birding-aus <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Cyclone Marcia
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It was an absolute privilege last weekend to spend time with Bob at his
> property north of Yeppoon watching Buff-Breasted Paradise-Kingfishers. I
> fear the worst for their hillside rainforest community, it will probably
> take days to clear the track out.
>
> As we brace in Gladstone, it won't be anything like what Yeppoon and Rocky
> are about to cop. Wishing you all the best, stay safe.
>
> Hannah
>
>
> > On 19 Feb 2015, at 8:51 pm, Denise Goodfellow <>
> wrote:
> >
> > To all those in the path of Cyclone Marcia, my thoughts are with you.
> >
> > Take care.
> >
> > Denise Lawungkurr Goodfellow
> > PO Box 71
> > Darwin River, NT, Australia 0841
> >
> > PhD candidate, Southern Cross University, Lismore, NSW.
> >
> > Founding Member: Ecotourism Australia
> > Nominated by Earthfoot for Cond? Nast?s International Ecotourism Award,
> 2004.
> > 043 8650 835
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:23:14 +1100
> From: "Mike Carter" <>
> To: "'Julian Bielewicz'" <>, "'Aus Birding'"
> <>
> Cc: David James <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Coconut on my Rainbow
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm sure this is a typo in the BARC checklist. Coconut Lorikeet is T.
> haematodus.
>
> Mike Carter, 03 9787 7136
> 30 Canadian Bay Road
> Mount Eliza, VIC 3930, Australia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus On Behalf
> Of Julian Bielewicz
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 9:55 AM
> To: Aus Birding
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Coconut on my Rainbow
>
> Greetings Folks
>
> While updating a number of birdlists for my website [
> www.birdingsouthburnett.com] I came across the Coconut Lorikeet. It
> appears to be conflicting with Rainbow Lorikeet.
>
> The problem also exists in my computer bird journal program but I am
> addressing that issue elsewhere.
>
> It appears that only the IOC makes specific reference to the Coconut as a
> separate species:
> Coconut haematodus
> Rainbow moluccanus
>
> Clements has the Coconut as a ?group? within the Rainbow complex:
>
> Trichoglossus haematodus [haematodus Group] Rainbow Lorikeet (Coconut)
>
> Other consulted authorities [e.g. Lynx, Avibase, etc.] basically concur
> with Clements.
>
> Which brings me to the recently released BARC list:
>
> Trichoglossus moluccanus Coconut
>
> Trichoglossus moluccanus Rainbow
>
>
>
> Am I to take this as indicating that ?Coconut? is merely an alternative
> name for ?Rainbow?; or is it considered a subspecies; or that the two
> having identical scientific names is a mere oversight, a ?typo??
>
> I would be grateful for any and all assistance in fathoming out how my
> Rainbows got onto the coconut shy.
>
> Cheers
> <HR>
> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> <BR>
> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> </HR>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4284/9147 - Release Date: 02/19/15
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:06:10 +1100
> From: brian fleming <>
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Backyard Goshawk, Ivanhoe
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Major surprise during a late breakfast- 9.45 am - looked out and saw a
> large bird on the back steps behind the house, just below our
> bird-bath. Lots of splashy dark brown markings - a juvenile Brown
> Goshawk. Eyebrows and heavy legs clearly seen, tail out of sight behind
> it. It stayed there for a minute or so, then took off and flew through
> the garden. When I got out with the camera, it was perched in our
> neighbour's big Sugar Gum, but again it took flight when I raised the
> camera. Its movements around nearby gardens could be traced by numerous
> alarm-calls.
> Brown Goshawks were regular visitors in the 1970s but in recent years
> they have not been seen very often.
> Our house is above Darebin Creek - major local bird-route.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:54:02 +1100
> From: Carl Clifford <>
> To: ""
> <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick the
> Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find very
> disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
>
>
> Hi Carl,
> I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the bird
> for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the other
> end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
>
> Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
>
> Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of this
> feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping some
> of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
>
> A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> Kind regards
> John Young
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:08:13 +1100
> From: Dave Torr <>
> To: Carl Clifford <>
> Cc: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID:
> <CAMQyua8h_Ut=
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Well - I guess if we hear of a mysterious fire and someone's life list goes
> up by one will have a good suspect!
>
> On 20 February 2015 at 12:54, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
>
> > I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very
> > disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> > setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he
> could
> > tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not
> adequate
> > enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> > were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> > BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> > retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs
> email:
> >
> >
> > Hi Carl,
> > I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> > ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> > Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> > space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> > The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the bird
> > for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> > He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the other
> > end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> > If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >
> > Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >
> > Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of this
> > feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping
> some
> > of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >
> > A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> > done.
> > My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> > Kind regards
> > John Young
> >
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:36:59 +1000
> From: "Barney Enders" <>
> To: <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] The depth some twichers will go to tick Night
> Parrots
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> They certainly walk amongst us, I have on several occasions had run in with
> them especially when sitting quietly waiting with the camera for a good
> shot
>
> and they walk in front of you and ask in a loud voice, "What is it"
>
>
>
> I remember sitting quietly on the water hole at Mungerannie Pub up the
> Birdsville Track one evening with a group of International Birdies and we
> heard what
> sounded like rifle shots and all the birds took off flying never to be seen
> again and this guy appeared cracking a whip, when asked what did he think
> he
> was doing
>
> he replied "It is easier to see them when they are flying. " Hello any
> one home"
>
> Did he learn his pedigree very quickly.
>
>
>
> Fortunately these are few and far between and what John has described is a
> hanging offence.
>
>
>
> "Better to sit and watch than to tick and walk"
>
>
>
> Barney
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:47:58 +1000
> From: Richard NOWOTNY <>
> To: Carl Clifford <>
> Cc: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I'm going to weigh in again here with a plea for us all to be thoughtful,
> considered and temperate in our language when we post messages on a public
> forum such as Birding-Aus.
> I'm sure Carl had only the best of intentions, but here are some
> thoughts/comments on his post.
> 1. Did he seek John's permission before sending John's personal email to
> the list? John may not wish his private comments to be broadcast in this
> way (and they may not do him any favours by being made public).
> 2. Is second-hand information ("hearsay" in legal terms) sufficiently
> reliable to justify such strong and emotive language directed at another
> person ["Utter contempt is not adequate enough to describe my feelings
> towards this person."], particularly when this person has had no
> opportunity to put their side of the story? (John himself knows all about
> this.)
> 3. John states that the supposed miscreant "implied" that a fire might do
> something. I would like to have the actual statement before concluding that
> this was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration, rather
> than say a careless or even whimsical comment (possibly misinterpreted in a
> sensitive and volatile setting).
> I know some might find all of this altogether too prissy and purist, and
> of course megaphone commentary makes for much more entertaining reading (or
> listening - think shock-jocks). But shouldn't we try on this forum,
> particularly with its slightly scientific pretensions, to remain objective,
> reasonable, fair, decent - you know, all that stuff?
> And surely that's enough on this matter.
> Regards. Richard
>
>
>
> > On 20 Feb 2015, at 11:54 am, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
> >
> >
> > Hi Carl,
> > I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> > Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> > The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the bird
> for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> > He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the other
> end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> > If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >
> > Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >
> > Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of this
> feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping some
> of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >
> > A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> > My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> > Kind regards
> > John Young
> >
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:22:20 +1100
> From: "Philip Veerman" <>
> To: "'birding-aus'" <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Forwarding some abstracts about feral cat
> research from CSIRO Wildlife Research Volume 41(5)
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have no connection with this, other than getting the contents list on an
> email........ I have copied the extracts of two of the articles here:
>
> Welcome to the latest e-alert for Wildlife Research. This issue includes
> articles about a diverse range of topics, including: meadow vole
> populations; behaviour of birds in habitats invaded by buffel grass;
> invasive stoat populations; effects of culling feral cats; light pollution
> and flatback turtle hatchlings; habitat use by feral cats; using
> mark-resight to monitor Canada geese; and the diet of frugivorous bats.
>
>
> To view articles that have been published Online Early before they have
> been
> collated into an issue, visit the Journal's website. Alternatively,
> subscribe to its RSS feed to be alerted when new articles are published.
>
> Effects of low-level culling of feral cats in open populations: a case
> study
> from the forests of southern Tasmania
> Billie T. Lazenby, Nicholas J. Mooney and Christopher R. Dickman
>
>
> Feral cats threaten biodiversity, and are often culled to reduce their
> impact. The effectiveness of culling is largely unknown in areas where new
> cats can replace those removed, but by using remote camera technology to
> identify individuals, we found that low-level culling resulted in an
> increase in cat numbers and activity. This unexpected result demonstrates
> the importance of monitoring management actions, and the need for
> strategic,
> systematic, and ongoing commitment to managing feral cats if their impact
> on
> biodiversity is to be reduced.
>
> A critical review of habitat use by feral cats and key directions for
> future
> research and management
> Tim S. Doherty, Andrew J. Bengsen and Robert A. Davis
>
>
> Feral cats have a wide global distribution and are a serious threat to
> biodiversity; an understanding of their habitat use is essential to
> reducing
> their impacts. Our review shows that current knowledge of the factors
> influencing cat habitat use is poor. Future studies will benefit from
> employing an experimental approach and collecting data on the relative
> abundance and activity of prey and other predators. Local knowledge and
> active monitoring is essential when deciding on control programs.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:19:20 +1100
> From: Peter Shute <>
> To: 'Richard NOWOTNY' <>, 'Carl Clifford'
> <>
> Cc: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I'm hoping this is the situation, and that they weren't serious. I can't
> believe anyone would be dumb enough to suggest that John get involved in
> burning them out, even if they were prepared to do that themself.
>
> I doesn't seem very practical anyway, given that you'd get a fleeting
> glimpse at best, if you could see it in the smoke.
>
> Peter Shute
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Birding-Aus
> > On Behalf Of
> > Richard NOWOTNY
> > Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 1:48 PM
> > To: Carl Clifford
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go
> > to tick the Night Parrot
> >
> > 3. John states that the supposed
> > miscreant "implied" that a fire might do something. I would
> > like to have the actual statement before concluding that this
> > was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration,
> > rather than say a careless or even whimsical comment
> > (possibly misinterpreted in a sensitive and volatile setting).
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:49:14 +1100
> From: "Stephen" <>
> To: <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] feral cats
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The loss of a Night Parrot to a feral cat is sad and dismaying, especially
> as it is merely a known case among other unknowns, presumably.
>
> The unfortunate truth is that feral cats are now part of Australia's fauna,
> along with foxes, cane toads etc. Despite many calls here for governments
> to
> do something, nothing can be done. Cats, like rabbits, are rapid breeders,
> and their biggest enemies are other cats eager for a vacant territory and
> food supply. Remove a cat, and you create a space for a grown kitten that
> otherwise might starve, as most young of most species do.
>
> To permanently affect a local population of cats there would need to be
> constant efforts of eradication, and even that would merely keep numbers
> low. That effort across a continent is impossible.
>
> A potential answer may be a genetically engineered virus for cats, both
> deadly and virulent. Were such developed, it could not be used lest it
> escape Australia to destroy native cats of all types in the old world.
>
> Cats and foxes are an undoubted threat to birds and other native animals,
> but the greater threat probably is habitat loss through clearing, grazing,
> weeds, fire-regimes etc, etc.
>
> I don't have an answer; I just have a fear for these vulnerable species.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 15:01:18 +1100
> From: Carl Clifford <>
> To: Richard NOWOTNY <>
> Cc: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> 1. I not only have John's permission but encouragement to forward this
> email which he sent to me this morning.
>
> 2. It is not hearsay, the forwarded email is John's word written in his
> own hand detailing what he heard and saw.
>
> 3. The accused person has the opportunity to state his/her case on
> Birding-aus. Indeed, I look forward to their side of the story
>
> 4. It is up to the list members and/or moderators to decide when it is
> "enough on this matter", not one individual.
>
> As for intemperate language, what I wrote is a greatly modified version of
> what I feel towards a person who would use such tactics as described by
> John, just to tick a bird.
>
> Carl Clifford
>
> > On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:47 pm, Richard NOWOTNY <>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to weigh in again here with a plea for us all to be
> thoughtful, considered and temperate in our language when we post messages
> on a public forum such as Birding-Aus.
> > I'm sure Carl had only the best of intentions, but here are some
> thoughts/comments on his post.
> > 1. Did he seek John's permission before sending John's personal email to
> the list? John may not wish his private comments to be broadcast in this
> way (and they may not do him any favours by being made public).
> > 2. Is second-hand information ("hearsay" in legal terms) sufficiently
> reliable to justify such strong and emotive language directed at another
> person ["Utter contempt is not adequate enough to describe my feelings
> towards this person."], particularly when this person has had no
> opportunity to put their side of the story? (John himself knows all about
> this.)
> > 3. John states that the supposed miscreant "implied" that a fire might
> do something. I would like to have the actual statement before concluding
> that this was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration,
> rather than say a careless or even whimsical comment (possibly
> misinterpreted in a sensitive and volatile setting).
> > I know some might find all of this altogether too prissy and purist, and
> of course megaphone commentary makes for much more entertaining reading (or
> listening - think shock-jocks). But shouldn't we try on this forum,
> particularly with its slightly scientific pretensions, to remain objective,
> reasonable, fair, decent - you know, all that stuff?
> > And surely that's enough on this matter.
> > Regards. Richard
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 20 Feb 2015, at 11:54 am, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Carl,
> >> I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> >> Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> >> The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the bird
> for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> >> He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the other
> end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> >> If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >>
> >> Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >>
> >> Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of
> this feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping
> some of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >>
> >> A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> >> My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> >> Kind regards
> >> John Young
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> <HR>
> >> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> >> <BR>
> >> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> >> </HR>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 15:04:13 +1100
> From: Carl Clifford <>
> To: Stephen <>
> Cc: "<>" <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] feral cats
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> The best type of virus, would be one that causes sterility in males.
>
> Carl Clifford
>
>
> > On 20 Feb 2015, at 2:49 pm, Stephen <> wrote:
> >
> > The loss of a Night Parrot to a feral cat is sad and dismaying,
> especially
> > as it is merely a known case among other unknowns, presumably.
> >
> > The unfortunate truth is that feral cats are now part of Australia's
> fauna,
> > along with foxes, cane toads etc. Despite many calls here for
> governments to
> > do something, nothing can be done. Cats, like rabbits, are rapid
> breeders,
> > and their biggest enemies are other cats eager for a vacant territory and
> > food supply. Remove a cat, and you create a space for a grown kitten that
> > otherwise might starve, as most young of most species do.
> >
> > To permanently affect a local population of cats there would need to be
> > constant efforts of eradication, and even that would merely keep numbers
> > low. That effort across a continent is impossible.
> >
> > A potential answer may be a genetically engineered virus for cats, both
> > deadly and virulent. Were such developed, it could not be used lest it
> > escape Australia to destroy native cats of all types in the old world.
> >
> > Cats and foxes are an undoubted threat to birds and other native animals,
> > but the greater threat probably is habitat loss through clearing,
> grazing,
> > weeds, fire-regimes etc, etc.
> >
> > I don't have an answer; I just have a fear for these vulnerable species.
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 15:53:32 +1100
> From: brian fleming <>
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and
> see one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in
> Cape York and the Kimberley.
> But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him
> a chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing
> on indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few
> years ago.
> My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking
> species and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into
> studying the life-histories of even common birds, we would know very
> much more than we do.
> Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird
> distribution and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great
> deal of fun for those energetic enough to do it - so has digital
> photography. But first and foremost, please let us consider the birds.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 16:14:58 +1100
> From: Michael Tarburton <>
> To: Carl Clifford <>
> Cc: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
> format=flowed
>
> G'day All
>
> Some people! Could I suggest that the ecotraps made in Melbourne are
> a very good way to catch cats and dogs. I used them in the bird
> sanctuary in PNG, better known as Pacific Adventist University. 50%
> of cats (from some old research I read) will not go into cage type
> traps, but this trap does not look like a trap at all, even to a cat
> or dog. It has a 1.5m zip on the narrow end so that if it is a Bilby
> or other native animal you have caught, you can easily release it.
>
> Some nights I sat nearby and watched it work. Highly recommended -
> though a tad expensive.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
> ===================
> Michael Tarburton
>
> ===================
>
>
>
>
> On 20/02/2015, at 12:54 PM, Carl Clifford wrote:
>
> > I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I
> > find very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher
> > could suggest setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex
> > country, just so he could tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 16:20:27 +1030
> From: "Tony Russell" <>
> To: "'birding-aus'" <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] FW: Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Russell
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 4:18 PM
> To: 'brian fleming'
> Subject: RE: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
>
> Yes, ticking is a strange occupation, a bit like collecting train or bus
> numbers ( which I used to do when I was a kid). Of course it does very
> little towards conservation, and in fact there have been many comments from
> "real" conservationists ( however defined) regarding the contempt in which
> they hold twitchers. The twitching compulsion is however very powerful,
> similar to heroin or crystal meth. or even pot I guess, not that I have
> ever
> been foolish enough to try any of these.
>
> I've been twitching now since 1991 and have experienced the excitement and
> satisfaction of getting new birds over and over again, the feeling never
> diminishes. The anticipation has made me travel all over this great
> southern
> land, covering many thousands of kilometres and costing sometimes
> inordinate
> amounts of money, and, incidentally, helping the tourism industry along the
> way. I've nevr ever thought of lighting fires though.
>
> On reflection, it's hard to explain. But it's been thoroughly enjoyable and
> I've made lots of friends. Tony.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus On Behalf
> Of
> brian fleming
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 3:24 PM
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
>
> I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and see
> one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in Cape
> York and the Kimberley.
> But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him a
> chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing on
> indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few years
> ago.
> My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking species
> and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into studying the
> life-histories of even common birds, we would know very much more than we
> do.
> Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird distribution
> and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great deal of fun for
> those energetic enough to do it - so has digital photography. But first and
> foremost, please let us consider the birds.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
>
> <HR>
> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> <BR>
> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:03:27 +0930
> From: Denise Goodfellow <>
> To: Carl Clifford <>
> Cc: Richard NOWOTNY <>, birding-aus
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Having guided birders for 30 + years, I?ve some idea what mad keen birders
> are capable of. And knowing John (and Carl), I don?t doubt at all what
> Carl wrote.
>
> Denise Goodfellow
>
>
>
>
> On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:31 pm, Carl Clifford <> wrote:
>
> > 1. I not only have John's permission but encouragement to forward this
> email which he sent to me this morning.
> >
> > 2. It is not hearsay, the forwarded email is John's word written in his
> own hand detailing what he heard and saw.
> >
> > 3. The accused person has the opportunity to state his/her case on
> Birding-aus. Indeed, I look forward to their side of the story
> >
> > 4. It is up to the list members and/or moderators to decide when it is
> "enough on this matter", not one individual.
> >
> > As for intemperate language, what I wrote is a greatly modified version
> of what I feel towards a person who would use such tactics as described by
> John, just to tick a bird.
> >
> > Carl Clifford
> >
> >> On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:47 pm, Richard NOWOTNY <>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm going to weigh in again here with a plea for us all to be
> thoughtful, considered and temperate in our language when we post messages
> on a public forum such as Birding-Aus.
> >> I'm sure Carl had only the best of intentions, but here are some
> thoughts/comments on his post.
> >> 1. Did he seek John's permission before sending John's personal email
> to the list? John may not wish his private comments to be broadcast in this
> way (and they may not do him any favours by being made public).
> >> 2. Is second-hand information ("hearsay" in legal terms) sufficiently
> reliable to justify such strong and emotive language directed at another
> person ["Utter contempt is not adequate enough to describe my feelings
> towards this person."], particularly when this person has had no
> opportunity to put their side of the story? (John himself knows all about
> this.)
> >> 3. John states that the supposed miscreant "implied" that a fire might
> do something. I would like to have the actual statement before concluding
> that this was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration,
> rather than say a careless or even whimsical comment (possibly
> misinterpreted in a sensitive and volatile setting).
> >> I know some might find all of this altogether too prissy and purist,
> and of course megaphone commentary makes for much more entertaining reading
> (or listening - think shock-jocks). But shouldn't we try on this forum,
> particularly with its slightly scientific pretensions, to remain objective,
> reasonable, fair, decent - you know, all that stuff?
> >> And surely that's enough on this matter.
> >> Regards. Richard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 20 Feb 2015, at 11:54 am, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Carl,
> >>> I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> >>> Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> >>> The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the
> bird for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> >>> He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the
> other end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> >>> If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >>>
> >>> Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >>>
> >>> Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of
> this feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping
> some of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >>>
> >>> A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> >>> My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> >>> Kind regards
> >>> John Young
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <HR>
> >>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> >>> <BR>
> >>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >>> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> >>> </HR>
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:30:37 +0930
> From: Denise Goodfellow <>
> To: Brian Fleming <>
> Cc: birding-aus <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Dear Anthea
>
> I am all the way with you on this one.
>
>
> Denise Goodfellow
>
>
>
>
> On 20 Feb 2015, at 2:23 pm, brian fleming <>
> wrote:
>
> > I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> > I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and
> see one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in
> Cape York and the Kimberley.
> > But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him a
> chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing on
> indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few years
> ago.
> > My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking
> species and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into studying
> the life-histories of even common birds, we would know very much more than
> we do.
> > Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird
> distribution and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great
> deal of fun for those energetic enough to do it - so has digital
> photography. But first and foremost, please let us consider the birds.
> >
> > Anthea Fleming
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 07:55:14 +0000
> From: Tony Clarke <>
> To: "' ' "
> <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot the ultimate tick
> Message-ID:
> <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear All
>
> I have been twitching now for something like 40 years and have done my
> fair share of crazy things in pursuit of birds but this is beyond belief.
> If the person was serious then they should be named and shamed, black
> listed by all the bird tour companies, put in front of a court and tried
> for criminal intent. Let's sentence him to being hung, drawn and quartered
> at the British Bird Fair.
>
> ?
> Tony Clarke,
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:58:53 +1000
> From: Laurie Knight <>
> To: Birding Aus <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> I?m not sure what the fuss is about. From the limited context in Carl?s
> original post, I presume John was referring to a conversation he had with a
> birdwatcher - possibly at one of his lectures - where the use of fire was
> mentioned as a hypothetical means to see a bird. I don?t believe that John
> is in the habit of taking people to Night Parrot locations, so there was no
> likelihood of a night parrot actually being disturbed.
>
> It is not unknown for birdwatchers to beat the ground to flush out birds,
> and I think that beating or selective spinifex lighting was a technique
> used to see Night Parrots back in the nineteenth century. Actually, I
> think many observations came from horse riders who saw birds flushed by
> their mounts.
>
> The bottom line is there are many people who don?t care about the welfare
> of the birds they see. All we can do is educate people ...
>
> As for John?s comments about governments, I would remind you that there
> have been many successful government programs to conserve birds in places
> like Macquarie Island, Lord Howe Island, Norfolk Island and in New
> Zealand. There is a place for both public and private sector conservation
> efforts.
>
> Regards, Laurie.
>
> On 20 Feb 2015, at 2:01 pm, Carl Clifford <> wrote:
>
> > 1. I not only have John's permission but encouragement to forward this
> email which he sent to me this morning.
> >
> > 2. It is not hearsay, the forwarded email is John's word written in his
> own hand detailing what he heard and saw.
> >
> > 3. The accused person has the opportunity to state his/her case on
> Birding-aus. Indeed, I look forward to their side of the story
> >
> > 4. It is up to the list members and/or moderators to decide when it is
> "enough on this matter", not one individual.
> >
> > As for intemperate language, what I wrote is a greatly modified version
> of what I feel towards a person who would use such tactics as described by
> John, just to tick a bird.
> >
> > Carl Clifford
> >
> >> On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:47 pm, Richard NOWOTNY <>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm going to weigh in again here with a plea for us all to be
> thoughtful, considered and temperate in our language when we post messages
> on a public forum such as Birding-Aus.
> >> I'm sure Carl had only the best of intentions, but here are some
> thoughts/comments on his post.
> >> 1. Did he seek John's permission before sending John's personal email
> to the list? John may not wish his private comments to be broadcast in this
> way (and they may not do him any favours by being made public).
> >> 2. Is second-hand information ("hearsay" in legal terms) sufficiently
> reliable to justify such strong and emotive language directed at another
> person ["Utter contempt is not adequate enough to describe my feelings
> towards this person."], particularly when this person has had no
> opportunity to put their side of the story? (John himself knows all about
> this.)
> >> 3. John states that the supposed miscreant "implied" that a fire might
> do something. I would like to have the actual statement before concluding
> that this was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration,
> rather than say a careless or even whimsical comment (possibly
> misinterpreted in a sensitive and volatile setting).
> >> I know some might find all of this altogether too prissy and purist,
> and of course megaphone commentary makes for much more entertaining reading
> (or listening - think shock-jocks). But shouldn't we try on this forum,
> particularly with its slightly scientific pretensions, to remain objective,
> reasonable, fair, decent - you know, all that stuff?
> >> And surely that's enough on this matter.
> >> Regards. Richard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 20 Feb 2015, at 11:54 am, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Carl,
> >>> I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> >>> Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> >>> The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the
> bird for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> >>> He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the
> other end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> >>> If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >>>
> >>> Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >>>
> >>> Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of
> this feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping
> some of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >>>
> >>> A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> >>> My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> >>> Kind regards
> >>> John Young
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <HR>
> >>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> >>> <BR>
> >>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >>> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> >>> </HR>
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:08:37 +1000
> From: Stephen Murray <>
> To: "'brian fleming'" <>,
> <>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I'm sorry, but I take exception to people setting themselves up as arbiters
> on what is a worthwhile pastime and what isn't. To me, birdwatching is a
> hobby, pure and simple: I collect photographs and I enjoy playing around
> with lists and accumulating sightings. I am not an ornithologist and have
> no
> desire to become one. Therefore, I feel it is someone else's vocation to
> contribute to the body of knowledge about birds. I personally know some
> plane spotters, and, whilst I find it hard to relate to their excitement, I
> would never disparage or denigrate what they do. Some people on this list
> have a condescending attitude to twitchers and listers and are only too
> pleased when something like this fire story comes along so that they can
> tar
> everyone with the same brush. How many twitchers do you think would set a
> fire to flush birds out? Don't forget, that listers choose to list birds
> rather than planes or trains or rocks. In most cases it's because they
> actually like birds and wouldn't harm them for the world.
> Steve Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus On Behalf
> Of
> brian fleming
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 2:54 PM
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
>
> I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and see
> one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in Cape
> York and the Kimberley.
> But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him a
> chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing on
> indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few years
> ago.
> My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking species
> and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into studying the
> life-histories of even common birds, we would know very much more than we
> do.
> Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird distribution
> and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great deal of fun for
> those energetic enough to do it - so has digital photography. But first and
> foremost, please let us consider the birds.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
>
> <HR>
> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> <BR>
> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:04:07 +0930
> From: "Experience the Wild" <>
> To: "'Stephen Murray'" <>
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> You have a good point and it is good to be reminded of the fact that there
> is a biodiversity of bird watchers as well as birds. No-one has the right
> to
> be judgemental when it comes to another person's priorities when it comes
> to
> birding. I have only very rarely come across birders/twitchers who seem to
> be more concerned about getting the tick than the welfare of the bird,
> (usually when it comes to what I would consider inappropriate use of
> playback). I accept that my opinions are not necessarily the same as
> everyone else's and mutually respectful conversations on this as with other
> matters relating to the birds, conservation, taxonomy, lists, tickability,
> etc are interesting, enlightening and keep us checking the latest
> Birding-Aus emails.
>
> Mike Jarvis
> experiencethewild.com.au
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus On Behalf
> Of
> Stephen Murray
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 5:39 PM
> To: 'brian fleming';
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
>
> I'm sorry, but I take exception to people setting themselves up as arbiters
> on what is a worthwhile pastime and what isn't. To me, birdwatching is a
> hobby, pure and simple: I collect photographs and I enjoy playing around
> with lists and accumulating sightings. I am not an ornithologist and have
> no
> desire to become one. Therefore, I feel it is someone else's vocation to
> contribute to the body of knowledge about birds. I personally know some
> plane spotters, and, whilst I find it hard to relate to their excitement, I
> would never disparage or denigrate what they do. Some people on this list
> have a condescending attitude to twitchers and listers and are only too
> pleased when something like this fire story comes along so that they can
> tar
> everyone with the same brush. How many twitchers do you think would set a
> fire to flush birds out? Don't forget, that listers choose to list birds
> rather than planes or trains or rocks. In most cases it's because they
> actually like birds and wouldn't harm them for the world.
> Steve Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus On Behalf
> Of
> brian fleming
> Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 2:54 PM
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
>
> I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and see
> one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in Cape
> York and the Kimberley.
> But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him a
> chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing on
> indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few years
> ago.
> My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking species
> and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into studying the
> life-histories of even common birds, we would know very much more than we
> do.
> Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird distribution
> and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great deal of fun for
> those energetic enough to do it - so has digital photography. But first and
> foremost, please let us consider the birds.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
>
> <HR>
> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> <BR>
> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> </HR>
>
>
> <HR>
> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> <BR>
> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:32:25 +1100
> From: Thomas Wilson <>
> To: birding aus <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Possible Pectoral Sandpiper - Sydney Olympic
> Park (& some other stuff)
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all
> I had a very ad hoc/unplanned trip to Sydney Olympic Park this morning (20
> Feb). At the waterbird refuge there was a single possible Pectoral
> Sandpiper that would be worth checking out. It was seen working in and out
> of the samphire near the water's edge about 50m to the right of the hide.
> Views from the hide were restricted to head only and it was best seen when
> looking back across the front of the hide (a long way) from the path.
> Distinctive feature was a very white belly with heavily marked breast and
> very distinct cut off between the two, which was what made me think
> Pectoral. Legs yellowish. A pale supercilium extended well beyond the eye
> and crown had no trace of chestnut. When it stood straight, it looked
> "tall". No Sharpies on site for a size comparison and no pics possible
> unfortunately (too far away and camera battery discovered to be flat -
> that's what happens with ad hoc trips...). I have also reported this in the
> NSW/ACT Birders Facebook site and I think there may be others heading out
> tomorrow to check it out (hoping it's still there).
>
> Also at the hide was a small covey of Brown Quail (saw 1, reckon 6 based
> on locations of calls) in the long grass/scrub just to the right when
> looking out of the hide. I didn't try to count the Red-necked Avocets but a
> good number of them and several busy groups of Black-fronted Dotterels too.
> There have been 3 Australasian Shovelers reported recently, but I could not
> find them.
>
> At nearby Mason Park, there were about 40 Sharpies (although they flew off
> and headed away before I could count properly). The flew off up the canal,
> so may have been heading for a site on Parramatta River or somewhere like
> that? There is a lone Pink-eared Duck at that site too.
>
> Cheers
> Tom Wilson
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 19:24:10 +0930
> From: Andrew Bell <>
> To: Carl Clifford <>
> Cc: Richard NOWOTNY <>,
> "" <
> >
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The depths some twitchers will go to tick
> the Night Parrot
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Sounds to me like a birder brought up on a diet of Monty Python with
> tongue pressed firmly in the cheek. (One birder I could imagine making such
> a quip is Bill Oddie, and I wouldn't put it past Jeremy Clarkson dropping a
> line like that either).
>
> Cheers, and remind me never to make such a twisted remark, even in jest...
>
> Andrew Bell
>
>
>
> > On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:31 pm, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >
> > 1. I not only have John's permission but encouragement to forward this
> email which he sent to me this morning.
> >
> > 2. It is not hearsay, the forwarded email is John's word written in his
> own hand detailing what he heard and saw.
> >
> > 3. The accused person has the opportunity to state his/her case on
> Birding-aus. Indeed, I look forward to their side of the story
> >
> > 4. It is up to the list members and/or moderators to decide when it is
> "enough on this matter", not one individual.
> >
> > As for intemperate language, what I wrote is a greatly modified version
> of what I feel towards a person who would use such tactics as described by
> John, just to tick a bird.
> >
> > Carl Clifford
> >
> >> On 20 Feb 2015, at 1:47 pm, Richard NOWOTNY <>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm going to weigh in again here with a plea for us all to be
> thoughtful, considered and temperate in our language when we post messages
> on a public forum such as Birding-Aus.
> >> I'm sure Carl had only the best of intentions, but here are some
> thoughts/comments on his post.
> >> 1. Did he seek John's permission before sending John's personal email
> to the list? John may not wish his private comments to be broadcast in this
> way (and they may not do him any favours by being made public).
> >> 2. Is second-hand information ("hearsay" in legal terms) sufficiently
> reliable to justify such strong and emotive language directed at another
> person ["Utter contempt is not adequate enough to describe my feelings
> towards this person."], particularly when this person has had no
> opportunity to put their side of the story? (John himself knows all about
> this.)
> >> 3. John states that the supposed miscreant "implied" that a fire might
> do something. I would like to have the actual statement before concluding
> that this was a statement of genuine intent or serious consideration,
> rather than say a careless or even whimsical comment (possibly
> misinterpreted in a sensitive and volatile setting).
> >> I know some might find all of this altogether too prissy and purist,
> and of course megaphone commentary makes for much more entertaining reading
> (or listening - think shock-jocks). But shouldn't we try on this forum,
> particularly with its slightly scientific pretensions, to remain objective,
> reasonable, fair, decent - you know, all that stuff?
> >> And surely that's enough on this matter.
> >> Regards. Richard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 20 Feb 2015, at 11:54 am, Carl Clifford <>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have just received this email from John Young, part of which I find
> very disturbing. How someone who purports to be a birdwatcher could suggest
> setting fire to a fragile environment as spinifex country, just so he could
> tick the Night Parrot is quite unfathomable. Utter contempt is not adequate
> enough to describe my feelings towards this person. Unfortunately, if I
> were to use the phraseology I would like to, I would likely be kicked off
> BA for life. Suffice to say, they would be a suitable candidate for
> retrospective sterilisation. Enough of my raging, here is John Youngs email:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Carl,
> >>> I could not resist complimenting you on your quote about governments
> ?Cloud Cuckoo Land? how good and factual is that.
> >>> Personally I think they are a baby kissing, weak hand shaking waste of
> space ? hence my stand to avoid them at all costs.
> >>> The scary part was I recently had an individual wanting to see the
> bird for his list at all costs and cost was the word.
> >>> He actually implied that a spinifex fire would force them out the
> other end so people could see them if lit when in position.
> >>> If I would have been closer I would have beat the #!%# out of him.
> >>>
> >>> Surely our priceless fauna mean more than just a bloody tick.
> >>>
> >>> Our focus as a serious group of people now should be the killing of
> this feral menace that has the potential in the VERY near future of wiping
> some of our precious fauna off the face of the earth.
> >>>
> >>> A huge thankyou to you and those who are driving this point home..well
> done.
> >>> My turn is coming and I will take no prisoners.
> >>> Kind regards
> >>> John Young
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <HR>
> >>> <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> >>> <BR>
> >>> <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >>> <BR>
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> >>> </HR>
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 21:39:25 +1100
> From: David Stowe <>
> To: Stephen Murray <>
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Couldn?t agree more Steve.
> I?ll also never be an ornithologist and whilst i try to help out
> conservation where i can, I don?t think anyone should have to justify the
> fact that they simply enjoy birdwatching in whatever form gives them the
> most personal pleasure. Does no-one else have hobbies or ways to relax that
> don?t actually have a higher purpose? Do we judge people for reading the
> newspaper?
>
> I?ve personally been with birders who have made jokes about flushing
> things with fire etc - but it has certainly always been tongue in cheek for
> sure!
> Yes if someone made the comment seriously it is terrible indeed - but lets
> put away the pitch forks for a bit eh?
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
>
> > On 20 Feb 2015, at 7:08 pm, Stephen Murray <>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry, but I take exception to people setting themselves up as
> arbiters
> > on what is a worthwhile pastime and what isn't. To me, birdwatching is a
> > hobby, pure and simple: I collect photographs and I enjoy playing around
> > with lists and accumulating sightings. I am not an ornithologist and
> have no
> > desire to become one. Therefore, I feel it is someone else's vocation to
> > contribute to the body of knowledge about birds. I personally know some
> > plane spotters, and, whilst I find it hard to relate to their
> excitement, I
> > would never disparage or denigrate what they do. Some people on this list
> > have a condescending attitude to twitchers and listers and are only too
> > pleased when something like this fire story comes along so that they can
> tar
> > everyone with the same brush. How many twitchers do you think would
> set a
> > fire to flush birds out? Don't forget, that listers choose to list birds
> > rather than planes or trains or rocks. In most cases it's because they
> > actually like birds and wouldn't harm them for the world.
> > Steve Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Birding-Aus On
> Behalf Of
> > brian fleming
> > Sent: Friday, 20 February 2015 2:54 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot - tickers and listers
> >
> > I am personally always delighted to see a new bird.
> > I am prepared to get in the car and drive a moderate distance to go and
> see
> > one. I have been known to pay money for people to show me birds in Cape
> > York and the Kimberley.
> > But I am extremely concerned - no, appalled, to hear of some person
> > seriously suggesting that spinifex should be fired in order to give him a
> > chance of "ticking" a Night Parrot, or anything else. Or trespassing on
> > indigenous people's land to see a Princess Parrot, as happened a few
> years
> > ago.
> > My personal opinion is that far too much effort is spent on ticking
> species
> > and building life-lists. If the same effort was put into studying the
> > life-histories of even common birds, we would know very much more than we
> > do.
> > Certainly atlassing has greatly built up our knowledge of bird
> distribution
> > and migration, and Twitchathons etc. have provided a great deal of fun
> for
> > those energetic enough to do it - so has digital photography. But first
> and
> > foremost, please let us consider the birds.
> >
> > Anthea Fleming
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
> >
> >
> > <HR>
> > <BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
> > <BR>
> > <BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > <BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
> > </HR>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 22:29:06 +1100
> From: Charles <>
> To: "<>" <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Zoo Australia
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> An interesting take on "fencing" to protect wildlife.
>
>
> http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-20/phillips-predator-proof-fences/6162484
>
> Cheers,
> Charles Hunter
> +61 402 907 577
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Birding-Aus mailing list
>
> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Birding-Aus Digest, Vol 16, Issue 18
> *******************************************
>
<HR>
<BR> Birding-Aus mailing list
<BR>
<BR> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:
<BR> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
</HR>
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