Hi All, have been following this thread with interest but are the original
images still available online or were they posted privately?...would be
nice for the rest of the group to see what you are discussing.
Tom
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Nikolas Haass <> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> This is obviously a misunderstanding. I never ever doubted the field
> marks of the two species that you, Martin and Lloyd pointed out and I
> definitely don't have the experience with these two species that the three
> of you have (neither of these honeyeaters occur in the Southern Ocean ;-)
> Interestingly all of us agree 100% that the bird in the second picture is
> a Yellow-spotted Honeyeater. In contrast to challenging your experience
> with telling apart the two SPECIES (which I never intended to do) I was and
> still am skeptical regarding telling apart the INDIVIDUAL(S) in the two
> PHOTOGRAPHS - and this is totally independent of any experience with the
> species. I still believe that there are subtle signs visible (see previous
> mail and below) that indicate that the bird in both photos may be the same
> bird. These subtleties are not field marks to tell species apart, they are
> minor irregularities similar to the ones that make us recognise specific
> people in a crowd.
> You may say that the photos are not good enough to judge on these
> subtleties. But also I am nut sure if the photos are good enough to judge
> on the 'shagginess' versus 'streakiness' (blurry in both pictures), the
> yellow stripe versus the yellow wash (blurry in both pictures), the colour
> of the gape (very overexposed in the second picture), shape of the bill
> (different angle in both pictures plus open vs. closed). Yes, the ear patch
> is unreliable for SPECIES ID but it could be useful for recognition of the
> same individual - in other words: If the shape was different I would be
> more convinced that the birds are indeed different birds (the double notch,
> one facing the gape line, the other below appear very similar in both
> birds). Also there is a very similar notch in the gape line just below the
> 6 o'clock pole of the eye.
>
> Again, I am not questioning anyone's ID skills, just the possibility of
> photographic artefacts...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nikolas
>
> ----------------
> Nikolas Haass
>
> Brisbane, QLD
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David James <>
> To: Nikolas Haass <>; Birding Aus <
> >
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yellow-spotted or Graceful Honeyeater?
>
>
>
> Hi Nikolas,
>
> The two species are similar looking, everyone agrees. Seeing the two
> species together a few minutes apart or at the same time is not unusual, so
> it is not only a circumstantial argument but a dubious one too. If you can
> only see one bird pictured I would politely suggest that you are missing
> the detail. The differences are subtle, yet obvious to an experienced eye.
> I lived in Townsville, where all 3 occur, for 11 years, studied them
> throughout their Australian ranges in the field and looked at museum skins
> for my ID article, and have since found the characters I proposed to
> be fail safe. I think the 'streaking' on the underparts of the first photo
> is very narrow shaft streaks (only noticeable with too much scrutiny) and
> is due to pale feather edges on the 2nd, so quite different (hence the term
> I use, 'shaggy' rather than 'streaky'). The first has a yellow belly strip,
> the second a yellow belly wash. The first has a more orange tinge to the
> fleshy
> part of the gape, where as the 2nd has a gape all the same SHADE of
> yellow but a little BRIGHTER on the fleshy bit. The angles are not good for
> comparing the shape of the stripe. The bills are different shapes, long,
> fine, decurved in the 1st, stubbier and chunkier in the 2nd. The shape of
> the ear patch is unreliable. The size of the ear patch tends to be bigger
> in Y-S and to my eye it looks bigger in the 2nd photo. All these characters
> and others are explained much more clearly in my article, but unfortunately
> I don't have a scan to send you.
>
> ==============================
>
> From: Nikolas Haass <>
> To: David James <>; Birding Aus <
> >
> Sent: Friday, 13 September 2013 1:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yellow-spotted or Graceful Honeyeater?
>
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I see your and Lloyds reasoning for the two-bird theory. However, the two
> pictures were taken a few minutes apart from each other, and to my memory
> Jeff said he had never seen more than one bird at a time. So, I am not sure
> if the differences seen in the two pictures are really species-related or
> rather photography-related (funny angle, different light, frozen snapshot
> that may or may not show the typical posture...). We all agree that the
> second picture shows a Yellow-spotted Honeyeater. I can only see one bird
> pictured, not two: If you look carefully at the details such as the exact
> shape of uneven areas in the naked skin of the gape as well as the detailed
> shape of the ear patch, they appear identical in both pictures. There is
> also no obvious difference in bill shape between the two pictures, although
> this is hard to tell because the bill is open in the first picture. I also
> don't see a difference in the intensity of stripes on the underparts.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nikolas
>
> ----------------
> Nikolas Haass
>
> Brisbane, QLD
>
> From: David James <>
> To: Birding Aus <>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 12:02 PM
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Yellow-spotted or Graceful Honeyeater?
>
>
> Nikolas has sent me the other photo and I agree with Lloyd. The first is a
> Graceful and the second is a Yellow-spotted. It would be worth putting the
> second photo on the blog so everyone can see. The characters I mentioned in
> my first post should highlight the main differences between the two birds
>
> Cheers,
> David James
> Sydney
> ==============================
> ===============================
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--
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Tom Tarrant
Kobble Creek, Qld
http://www.aviceda.org
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