This disparity doesn't explain how duck shooting got banned in various
states other than Victoria.
John Leonard
On 28 March 2013 12:03, Dave Torr <> wrote:
> It was announced at the time of the BirdLife merger that there would be
> around 10,000 members. Of course lots of birders don't belong or belong to
> smaller groups which mean that we do not present a united front. I believe
> there are at least 15,000 shooters in Vic alone. In fact the national body
> has 140,000 members (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporting_Shooters_Association_of_Australia)
> so
> they probably outnumber birders (at least those in clubs) by 10:1!
>
> On 28 March 2013 11:26, Sonja Ross <> wrote:
>
> > Good morning all,
> >
> > Do we have any idea of how many of each group i.e. hunters and birders,
> > there are?
> >
> > Sonja
> >
> >
> > On 27/03/2013, at 8:47 PM, Chris Sanderson wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Nick for providing some balance to the argument! I certainly
> know
> > > some conservation-minded shooters who are no doubt cringing at this
> news.
> > > In fact I think probably many shooters are reading these news articles
> > and
> > > thinking "you buggers are ruining it for the rest of us". At least I
> > hope
> > > they are, because peer pressure is likely to be far more effective than
> > > pester-power in achieving improvements in hunting behaviour. I'm not
> > > certain the bad behaviour of birders (which undoubtedly happens and is
> > > likely more common than we'd like to think) is comparable to the
> > senseless
> > > slaughter of hundreds of protected birds though. Perhaps egg
> collecting
> > or
> > > poaching would be a better counter-example, as no doubt there have been
> > > people interested in birds and bird-watching who have strayed down that
> > > path in the past.
> > >
> > > I do know that polarising this issue puts us on the losing side, as
> there
> > > are many, many more hunters than birders, and while this is a political
> > > issue that means we can't win. Perhaps considering Nick's idea of
> > talking
> > > to the hunting lobby as equals with a vested interest in conservation
> has
> > > some merit?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 8:08 PM, David Richardson <
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well written Mr Leseberg.Food for thought.
> > >>
> > >> D. Richardson.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Nick Leseberg <
> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Sonja et al,
> > >>>
> > >>> I think we as birders need to be very careful how we approach this
> > >>> particular event. The broad statement that "I don't think shooters
> > would
> > >>> consider it a waste or mindless" is unhelpful and attempts to tar all
> > >>> shooters with the same brush. There are many responsible shooters out
> > >> there
> > >>> who are very aware of the rules applied to regulate their chosen
> > pastime,
> > >>> and who abide by those rules. There are plenty of birders who
> disregard
> > >> or
> > >>> blatantly flout the rules associated with our pastime, approaching
> > nests
> > >>> too closely (see the recent thread concerning the nesting Red
> Goshawks
> > at
> > >>> Mataranka), using excessive playback when photographing birds etc,
> but
> > >>> there is no suggestion that birding should be banned. Likewise there
> > are
> > >>> hunters who will disregard or blatantly flout the rules pertaining to
> > >>> hunting. As birders and people generally concerned for the
> environment,
> > >> we
> > >>> must be sure to direct our efforts at ensuring the rules that exist
> are
> > >>> enforced and that those who flout them are puni
> > >>> shed accordingly, rather than simply decrying the existence of duck
> > >>> shooters as a fraternity, because one or even a minority of
> > duckshooters
> > >>> broke the rules.
> > >>>
> > >>> This raises the follow-on question of whether the rules and
> regulations
> > >>> which apply to hunting are adequate, an issue for which there is no
> > easy
> > >>> answer. Several species of duck are not endangered and could quite
> > easily
> > >>> sustain a level of harvesting that would not affect their population.
> > >> Just
> > >>> as there is a program for management of macropod populations in some
> > >> rural
> > >>> areas, a program whereby people are permitted to sustainably hunt
> > certain
> > >>> duck species is unlikely to have any significant effects on the
> > >> populations
> > >>> of those species. If such a program is effectively managed and
> policed
> > I
> > >>> can only see benefits. What if the money raised from such a program
> was
> > >> put
> > >>> towards the conservation of sensitive wetlands, as occurs in the
> United
> > >>> States where the hunting lobby is also a very effective conservation
> > >> group?
> > >>> I have often wondered why organisations which ultimately have similar
> > >> goals
> > >>> are not able to unite in some way to further both their interests.
> > >>>
> > >>> If the issue is that shooting ducks is inhumane due to the
> probability
> > >>> that birds will be left wounded, then we should make this clear also.
> > Is
> > >>> there possibly a balance that can be reached here? What if those
> rules
> > >> and
> > >>> regulations that try to mitigate these problems can be better
> enforced,
> > >>> perhaps with the help of conservation volunteers? Would that satisfy
> > >>> organisations like the Coalition Against Duck Shooting? Could the
> > >>> organisations on both sides of this argument meet at some level to
> come
> > >> up
> > >>> with an accord where they agree to disagree on some issues, but also
> > >> commit
> > >>> to working together to solve other problems and also advance the
> causes
> > >> of
> > >>> both organisations on issues such as wetland conservation,
> > shooter/birder
> > >>> education etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> So, before the hate mail starts rolling in, I want to make it clear
> > that
> > >>> my intention here is not to defend duck shooting. The incident that
> > >>> occurred in NW Vic was abhorrent and we as bird lovers should voice
> our
> > >>> disgust and ensure that the perpetrator(s) feel the full weight of
> the
> > >> law.
> > >>> When looking at the bigger picture though, we need to be articulate
> and
> > >>> direct about what our issues are. If we have a particular problem
> with
> > >> duck
> > >>> hunting we need to make that clear, and we also need to ensure we can
> > >>> justify why it is a problem and how this problem can be solved. Broad
> > >> brush
> > >>> statements such as "duck shooters are murdering innocent wildlife and
> > >>> should be stopped" are not helpful, and simply force the opposing
> > groups
> > >>> further apart. In reality, the abolition of duck hunting in Victoria
> > (and
> > >>> perhaps looking further ahead, NSW) doesn't seem to be an option, so
> > >> let's
> > >>> think outside the box and be creative in coming up with ways we can
> > >>> approach this problem and get a better outcome
> > >>> for all involved.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards and good birding (as he boards up his windows and doors, and
> > >> turns
> > >>> off his phone and email!!)
> > >>>
> > >>> Nick Leseberg
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
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--
John Leonard
Canberra
Australia
www.jleonard.net
I want to be with the 9,999 other things.
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