I don't know if the ratio of shooter to birders is relevant. There are plenty
of people who are against duck hunting who aren't birders. The relevant ratio
is the number of people who politicians think will vote for them if they
support duck hunting vs the number they think won't.
Peter Shute
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> On Behalf Of
> Sonja Ross
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013 12:10 PM
> To: Dave Torr;
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Freckled Ducks, Hunting and the
> Bigger Picture
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Thanks for that. It isn't good news!
>
> Sonja
>
>
> On 28/03/2013, at 12:03 PM, Dave Torr wrote:
>
> > It was announced at the time of the BirdLife merger that
> there would be around 10,000 members. Of course lots of
> birders don't belong or belong to smaller groups which mean
> that we do not present a united front. I believe there are at
> least 15,000 shooters in Vic alone. In fact the national body
> has 140,000 members
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporting_Shooters_Association_of
> _Australia) so they probably outnumber birders (at least
> those in clubs) by 10:1!
> >
> > On 28 March 2013 11:26, Sonja Ross <> wrote:
> > Good morning all,
> >
> > Do we have any idea of how many of each group i.e. hunters
> and birders, there are?
> >
> > Sonja
> >
> >
> > On 27/03/2013, at 8:47 PM, Chris Sanderson wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Nick for providing some balance to the argument!
> I certainly
> > > know some conservation-minded shooters who are no doubt
> cringing at this news.
> > > In fact I think probably many shooters are reading these news
> > > articles and thinking "you buggers are ruining it for the rest of
> > > us". At least I hope they are, because peer pressure is
> likely to
> > > be far more effective than pester-power in achieving
> improvements in
> > > hunting behaviour. I'm not certain the bad behaviour of birders
> > > (which undoubtedly happens and is likely more common than
> we'd like
> > > to think) is comparable to the senseless slaughter of hundreds of
> > > protected birds though. Perhaps egg collecting or
> poaching would be
> > > a better counter-example, as no doubt there have been people
> > > interested in birds and bird-watching who have strayed
> down that path in the past.
> > >
> > > I do know that polarising this issue puts us on the
> losing side, as
> > > there are many, many more hunters than birders, and while
> this is a
> > > political issue that means we can't win. Perhaps
> considering Nick's
> > > idea of talking to the hunting lobby as equals with a vested
> > > interest in conservation has some merit?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 8:08 PM, David Richardson
> > > <
> > >> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well written Mr Leseberg.Food for thought.
> > >>
> > >> D. Richardson.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Nick Leseberg
> > >> <
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Sonja et al,
> > >>>
> > >>> I think we as birders need to be very careful how we
> approach this
> > >>> particular event. The broad statement that "I don't
> think shooters
> > >>> would consider it a waste or mindless" is unhelpful and
> attempts
> > >>> to tar all shooters with the same brush. There are many
> > >>> responsible shooters out
> > >> there
> > >>> who are very aware of the rules applied to regulate
> their chosen
> > >>> pastime, and who abide by those rules. There are plenty
> of birders
> > >>> who disregard
> > >> or
> > >>> blatantly flout the rules associated with our pastime,
> approaching
> > >>> nests too closely (see the recent thread concerning the nesting
> > >>> Red Goshawks at Mataranka), using excessive playback when
> > >>> photographing birds etc, but there is no suggestion
> that birding
> > >>> should be banned. Likewise there are hunters who will
> disregard or
> > >>> blatantly flout the rules pertaining to hunting. As birders and
> > >>> people generally concerned for the environment,
> > >> we
> > >>> must be sure to direct our efforts at ensuring the rules that
> > >>> exist are enforced and that those who flout them are puni shed
> > >>> accordingly, rather than simply decrying the existence of duck
> > >>> shooters as a fraternity, because one or even a minority of
> > >>> duckshooters broke the rules.
> > >>>
> > >>> This raises the follow-on question of whether the rules and
> > >>> regulations which apply to hunting are adequate, an issue for
> > >>> which there is no easy answer. Several species of duck are not
> > >>> endangered and could quite easily sustain a level of
> harvesting that would not affect their population.
> > >> Just
> > >>> as there is a program for management of macropod populations in
> > >>> some
> > >> rural
> > >>> areas, a program whereby people are permitted to
> sustainably hunt
> > >>> certain duck species is unlikely to have any
> significant effects
> > >>> on the
> > >> populations
> > >>> of those species. If such a program is effectively managed and
> > >>> policed I can only see benefits. What if the money raised from
> > >>> such a program was
> > >> put
> > >>> towards the conservation of sensitive wetlands, as
> occurs in the
> > >>> United States where the hunting lobby is also a very effective
> > >>> conservation
> > >> group?
> > >>> I have often wondered why organisations which ultimately have
> > >>> similar
> > >> goals
> > >>> are not able to unite in some way to further both their
> interests.
> > >>>
> > >>> If the issue is that shooting ducks is inhumane due to the
> > >>> probability that birds will be left wounded, then we
> should make
> > >>> this clear also. Is there possibly a balance that can
> be reached
> > >>> here? What if those rules
> > >> and
> > >>> regulations that try to mitigate these problems can be better
> > >>> enforced, perhaps with the help of conservation
> volunteers? Would
> > >>> that satisfy organisations like the Coalition Against Duck
> > >>> Shooting? Could the organisations on both sides of this
> argument
> > >>> meet at some level to come
> > >> up
> > >>> with an accord where they agree to disagree on some issues, but
> > >>> also
> > >> commit
> > >>> to working together to solve other problems and also
> advance the
> > >>> causes
> > >> of
> > >>> both organisations on issues such as wetland conservation,
> > >>> shooter/birder education etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> So, before the hate mail starts rolling in, I want to make it
> > >>> clear that my intention here is not to defend duck
> shooting. The
> > >>> incident that occurred in NW Vic was abhorrent and we as bird
> > >>> lovers should voice our disgust and ensure that the
> perpetrator(s)
> > >>> feel the full weight of the
> > >> law.
> > >>> When looking at the bigger picture though, we need to be
> > >>> articulate and direct about what our issues are. If we have a
> > >>> particular problem with
> > >> duck
> > >>> hunting we need to make that clear, and we also need to
> ensure we
> > >>> can justify why it is a problem and how this problem can be
> > >>> solved. Broad
> > >> brush
> > >>> statements such as "duck shooters are murdering
> innocent wildlife
> > >>> and should be stopped" are not helpful, and simply force the
> > >>> opposing groups further apart. In reality, the
> abolition of duck
> > >>> hunting in Victoria (and perhaps looking further ahead, NSW)
> > >>> doesn't seem to be an option, so
> > >> let's
> > >>> think outside the box and be creative in coming up with ways we
> > >>> can approach this problem and get a better outcome for all
> > >>> involved.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards and good birding (as he boards up his windows
> and doors,
> > >>> and
> > >> turns
> > >>> off his phone and email!!)
> > >>>
> > >>> Nick Leseberg
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
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