I could find two photos of Kelp Gull's in Madagascar if these help
(actually 4, but 2 were identified as vagrant subspecies)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steveblain/6031504599/
http://www.wildmadagascar.com/images/bgs/birds-madagascar-kelp-gull-02.jpg
Jeremy
On 23 January 2013 13:29, Mick Roderick <> wrote:
> Hi Jeff et al,
>
> For what it's worth when there are only images to go by, there is some
> (albeit clunky) info on melisandae at the website below, including bill
> measurements (exposed culmen length, depth at gonys, depth at nostril...if
> I'm reading it correctly):
>
>
> http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofbritis122brit/bulletinofbritis122brit_djvu.txt
>
> Just use your find text option on "melisandae".
>
> Incidentally, I think Dimitris is based in Asutralia and Harry Nystrom is
> the Finnish contact.
>
> Mick
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Davies <>
> To: 'Dimitris Bertzeletos' <>; 'Birding
> Australia' <>
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lesser Black-backed Gull at Broome tip
>
> A good move Dimitris and many thanks for the input you have already
> coordinated from Finland, it has been very valuable input for all of us to
> take on board with this difficult bird. I will be very keen to see what
> others on birdforum have to say. Especially keen to hear from anyone with
> experience or photos of ssp melisandrae.
>
> Cheers Jeff.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> On Behalf Of Dimitris
> Bertzeletos
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 12:49 PM
> To: Birding Australia
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lesser Black-backed Gull at Broome tip
>
>
> Hello all again,
>
> Just for completeness sake, wouldn't it be prudent to ensure that this bird
> isn't a Kelp Gull? Whatever it is it is certainly on the male bulky side of
> intermedius and fuscus if it is one.
>
> I have posted a link to the images of the birds on birdforum.net which
> several larophiles visit frequently. This is the tread:
> http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2644996#post2644996
>
> All the best,
>
> D.
>
> > From:
> > To: ;
> > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 01:19:57 +1100
> > CC: ; ;
> > ; ;
> > ;
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lesser Black-backed Gull at Broome tip
> >
> > Visa states " All in all, this individual seems to have so many "minor
> > faults" that I would like to familiarize myself with the arguments
> > that state this cannot be a dominicanus."
> >
> >
> > I would suggest the bill is way too narrow for a kelp Gull, also the
> > white trailing edge is equally too narrow especially at the inner
> > primaries, and the degree of primaries extending beyond the tail tip
> > compared to length of tail beyond tertials is too long allowing for
> > this bird having lost its longest tertial. Olsen describes ssp
> > melisandrae of Kelp Gull from Madagascar as having a smaller and
> > slimmer bill than Cape Gull, but this Broome bird's bill would represent
> an extremely slimmer Kelp Gull indeed.
> > However I admit to not having ever seen an image of melisandrae, can't
> > find one anywhere.
> >
> > Cheers Jeff.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > On Behalf Of Harry
> > Nyström
> > Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 12:29 AM
> > To: Nikolas Haass
> > Cc: Jim Allen; Danny Rogers; ; George Swann
> > of Kimberley Birdwatching; Tony Palliser; Rohan Clarke
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lesser Black-backed Gull at Broome tip
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Here are the first comments from Finland after my rough translation.
> > The comments are provided by Mr. Visa Rauste, who has studied gulls
> > for several years (decades?) and has been on the national rarities
> > committee for almost
> > 20 years of which 11 as the chairman (until 2011, when he left the seat).
> > Another person is also quoted, and the person is clearly stated. I
> > will still try to forward the photos to some other laridists for
> > further review, but to my knowledge the comments by Mr. Rauste are
> > practically as competent as can be.
> >
> > I'll keep you posted if other comments emerge.
> >
> > Visa's comments:
> >
> > *"First of all, the identification is very dependent on the accuracy
> > of the white balance and correctness of the exposure of the images. If
> > we go with the assumption that they are correct, the bird is
> > definitely not a "normal heuglini". The upperparts of a heuglini
> > should never be that dark and they should show a clearer bluish tinge.
> > On the other hand, it should be noted that the line between a heuglini
> > and a fuscus is not as clear as sometimes is suggested. And because of
> > that, there has not been much support in Europe and especially in
> > Finland to draw a line between these two taxons to split them into two
> different species.
> >
> > *
> > *When it comes to the structure of the bird, it is to my opinion
> > fuscus enough, but the structural difference between a fuscus and a
> > heuglini is so small and more or less on the average that I wouldn't
> > give it much weight when identifying an individual as a distant rarity
> > on the other side of the globe.
> >
> > *
> > *The moult is also better in line with fuscus, although I don't have
> > my own data collected of wintering birds. The interruption of the
> > moult in the primaries at this time of the year in that way is not
> > typical for either taxons but is the "personal solution" of the
> > individual that is probably related to the otherwise extraordinary life
> phases of the bird.
> >
> > *
> > *A little disturbing feature comes to my mind regarding the photos:
> > the iris of the bird is untypically dark for a fuscus, which almost
> > always (especially during Summer) has a clear light yeallow iris. The
> > iris should not show any or only slight spotting, when this individual
> > shows it quite a
> > lot: http://www.pbase.com/wildlifeimages/image/148413423
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *I also have to say that I don't know anything about the gulls of the
> > southern hemisphere, but I have to rely that the locals can identify
> > and exclude them."*
> >
> > ------
> >
> > Visa's comments after having a good night's sleep in between when
> > asked about the possibility of an intermedius:
> >
> > *"Yesterday I wasn't keen on trying to open the whole Lesser
> > Black-backed Gull -dilemma, and I'm still not. But I'll open it just a
> little, anyway.
> > The difference between an intermedius and a fuscus is a "line drawn in
> > water" when examined on an individual level, although they are
> > different enough as populations to deserve their subspecies status.
> >
> > In other words, a "dark intermedius" is identical to a "light fuscus".
> > And I literally mean "IS identical", not "looks identical". ;-)
> >
> > *
> > *Of course, an individual that is lighter than a typical fuscus and
> > darker than a graellsii (or heuglini) can be called an intermedius.
> > Note that such a bird might still be from the phasing region of fuscus
> > and heuglini and not from the phasing region of fuscus and graellsii,
> > which would be the "genuine" intermedius. Of course, even in Finland
> > we have all kinds of LBBGs, for example like this - what would you call
> this:
> > http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu34.html
> >
> > *
> > *Having said that, I still got the feeling yesterday that the
> > individual is more "dark as a fuscus" than "dark as a typical
> > intermedius". This concerns of course only the impression on the
> > darkness (which is affected by many things, starting from the display
> > one uses when viewing the photos). The darkness cannot be estimated
> > accurately enough from photos, not even as good as these. If the bird
> > was captured, one could use the Kodak-scale to assess the darkness of
> > it; a typical graellsii is about 9-11, intermedius
> > 11-13 and fuscus 13-17.
> >
> > *
> > *But now all I can give is a "no can do", in addition to throwing out
> > some impressions. Nevertheless: I have no reason to think this
> > individual is a heuglini. No reason at all.
> >
> > *
> > *But... Something still doesn't add up.
> >
> > *
> > *The bird e.g. looks a bit long-legged, but it may not be essential.
> >
> > *
> > *What could be essential is the pattern of the innermost primaries: if
> > I am calculating the primaries correctly (differentiating the
> > outermost secondary and the innermost primary is not as
> > straightforward as one would think), this bird has black patterns only
> > in the 6 outermost primaries (P4 might have a very small dot on the
> > edge of the outer web, but can be seen only in some very close photos).
> >
> > *
> > *Finnish birders, Antero Lindholm and Annika Forsten, have studied the
> > wing tip patterns on Baltic Gulls (LBBG fuscus) of a known age, and in
> > a data consisting of 138 +3cy individuals only 1 (one) bird had black
> > in just the
> > 6 outermost primaries:
> > http://www.caluta.liitin.net/Caluta/Caluta1_l.pdf
> >
> > *
> > *All in all, this individual seems to have so many "minor faults" that
> > I would like to familiarize myself with the arguments that state this
> > cannot be a dominicanus. Unfortunately I won't have the time to do
> > this in the next few days."*
> >
> > -------
> >
> > Some other comments have also been given, this one from Petri Lampila,
> > also a member of the national rarities committee:
> > *
> > *
> > *"In addition to the minor faults already stated, the individual seems
> > to lack all winter plumage features (streaking on the head). One would
> > expect such winter plumage features from a northern hemisphere gull. I
> > don't have experience from the fuscus in winter plumage, but for
> > example the heuglinis, which I just recently saw in Goa (ca. 50
> > individuals), were all very clearly in their winter plumage. Of course
> > there are exceptions to the rule, but the list of untypical features
> > is starting to be a little long for a
> > vagrant."*
> >
> > Additionally, the possibility of a hybrid should be taken into
> > consideration somehow - at least according to some.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Harry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/1/22 Nikolas Haass <>
> >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > No, this is not an incredible way to argue because it wasn't
> > > intended to be an experiment using the Broome gull as a 'control'. I
> > > was just wondering if the NW India birds, in turn, can be used as a
> > > valid 'control' for the Broome bird. There has been a long
> > > discussion about these birds in India and apparently it still has
> > > not been resolved which taxa winter in NW India. So, yes, the Indian
> > > birds could be heuglini
> > OR taimyrensis.
> > >
> > > To the Broome bird: It still doesn't look like a perfect L. f.
> > > fuscus to me for the reasons I discussed in previous mails. I know
> > > that some people favour L. f. fuscus, but to my knowledge a number
> > > of people besides me have made the case for L. f./h. heuglini, too.
> > > I agree that the bird is too dark for taimyrensis, which I suggested
> > > based on iris colour and bill shape. I am interested in the
> > > identification of this bird and contributed to it to my best knowledge.
> > >
> > > BTW in case the bird will be proven to be a L. f. fuscus, I won't be
> > > embarrassed at all.
> > >
> > > Nikolas
> > >
> > > ----------------
> > > Nikolas Haass
> > >
> > > Sydney, NSW
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Mike Carter <>
> > > To: Nikolas Haass <>; Tony Palliser
> > > <>;
> > > Cc: 'George Swann of Kimberley Birdwatching' <
> > > >; 'Rohan Clarke' <
> > > >; 'Danny Rogers'
> > > <>; 'Tony Palliser' <>; 'Jim
> Allen'
> > > <>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lesser Black-backed Gull at Broome tip
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikolas, what an incredible way to argue? It seems that you are
> > > saying that because you say that the Broome bird is heuglini that is
> > > what it is and any evidence leading to a contrary conclusion must be
> false.
> > > Surely the logical conclusion is that the Indian birds are paler
> > > than the Broome bird because they are heuglini as would be expected
> > > at that site whereas the Broome bird is fuscus as the colour and
> > > other factors suggest.
> > >
> > > Mike Carter
> > > 30 Canadian Bay Road
> > > Mount Eliza VIC
> > > 3930
> > > Tel (03) 9787 7136
> > >
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