Re: research papers from banding work at Charcoal Tank

To: 'Mark Clayton' <>, "" <>
Subject: Re: research papers from banding work at Charcoal Tank
From: Philip Veerman <>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:43:35 +0000

Yes perhaps I should read the paper and others leading up to it. Thanks for the hint…… As if I needed to be told that. But I do not have it or them to read them. If I had, then I would not be in a position to ask. But others may also like to know. At a first step I was only asking what species. So that simple question is quick and a simple answer would be easy. The species is………  


Of course “they might have a clue about what they were doing with the data”.  That would seem obvious.


From: Mark Clayton [
Sent: Monday, 10 February, 2020 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [canberrabirds] Re: research papers from banding work at Charcoal Tank


Perhaps Mr Veerman should read the paper and others leading up to it done by Dr Gardner. If I was curious about something I would try and find out the story behind why I thought it was curious. The authors of the first paper come from both the ANU and Cambridge University in the UK, I just supplied the data and answered any questions that were asked, so I suggest that they might have a clue about what they were doing with the data.


On 10/02/2020 10:22 am, Philip Veerman wrote:

Fine, I’m curious. About number 1. What is the semi-arid passerine? Curious that a warming climate would produce a size increase.  I would have expected that a change over time would follow the usual protocol of a change over distribution, as in a cline. That would normally be a size decrease in response to warming. Although many factors can be influencing change. An exception can be noteworthy.


From Wikipedia:


In biology, a cline (from the Greek “klinein”, meaning “to lean”) is a measurable gradient in a single character (or biological trait) of a species across its geographical range.[1] First coined by Julian Huxley in 1938, the “character” of the cline referred to is usually genetic (e.g. allele frequencyblood type), or phenotypic (e.g. body size, skin pigmentation). Clines can show smooth, continuous gradation in a character, or they may show more abrupt changes in the trait from one geographic region to the next.[2]

A cline refers to a spatial gradient in a specific, singular trait, rather than a gradient in a population as a whole.[3] A single population can therefore theoretically have as many clines as it has traits.[4] Additionally, Huxley recognised that these multiple independent clines may not act in concordance with each other. For example, it has been observed that in Australia, birds generally become smaller the further towards the north of the country they are found. In contrast, the intensity of their plumage colouration follows a different geographical trajectory, being most vibrant where humidity is highest and becoming less vibrant further into the arid centre of the country.[5] Because of this, clines were defined by Huxley as being an “auxiliary taxonomic principle”; that is, clinal variation in a species is not awarded taxonomic recognition in the way subspecies or species are.[1]



HANZAB volumes were published from 1990 to 2006 and typically with a lead time of more than a year. So those papers, or anything else that recent, would not be in HANZAB. I think that when HANZAB refers to results from banding studies, it tends to just give the numerical data, not always mentioning place, and normally without citing who by. Unless it quotes actual individual published reports. So surely lots of Mark’s data would be included in HANZAB, without that being directly mentioned. So searching that would be very difficult.


From: Mark Clayton
Sent: Monday, 10 February, 2020 8:43 AM
To: Michael Lenz; chatline
Subject: [canberrabirds] Re: research papers from banding work at Charcoal Tank


Michael et al.,

As requested, the papers that have come out of The Charcoal Tank (and Buddigower) Nature Reserves banding studies near West Wyalong in NSW.

i/ Gardner, J.L, Amano, T, Mackey, B.G., Sutherland, W.J., Clayton, M. and Peters, A. (2014). Dynamic size responses to climate change: prevailing effects of rising temperature drive long-term body size increases in a semi-arid passerine. Global Change Biology  20 2062-2075.

ii/ Gardner J.L., Amano, T., Sutherland, W.J., Clayton, M. and Peters, A. (2016) Individual and demographic consequences of reduced body condition following repeated exposure to high temperatures. Ecological Society of America 97(3) 786-795.

iii/ Hunt, A., Ewin, P. and Clayton, M. (2018) An example of a "Twinkling Lights" local extinction event: population dynamics of Gilbert's Whistler at The Charcoal Tank Nature Reserve,New South Wales. Corella 42: 42-49.

There are at least 4 other papers going through the editorial process at present or in the process of being written. I have also supplied data (more on a pers comm. than actual physical data) to a paper by John Rawsthorne on the status of the Spiny-cheeked Honeyeater in NSW (sorry , I can't put my hands on it at present), and from another banding study, I am a co-author on a paper with Jon Coleman and Fred van Gessel on the White-faced Robin from Iron Range National Park in Queensland published in Sunbird but again can't put my hand on the exact reference.

I will leave people to check the HANZAB series to find what other data from The Charcoal Tank (and Buddigower) Nature Reserves and other banding studies I have been involved in that was supplied to that series.


On 10/02/2020 6:50 am, Michael Lenz wrote:



could you please provide the references for the studies based on banding data from Charcoal Tank. You mentioned 3 papers.



Michael Lenz

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