naturerecordists
[Top] [All Lists]

8. Re: So, I have lost everything...

Subject: 8. Re: So, I have lost everything...
From: "Eric Fassbender" eric.fassbender
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2013 5:36 pm ((PDT))
Kin, I thought I was paranoid about data security but your system is outsta=
ndingly clever. I am very impressed!

As you suggest, I do the incremental Time Machine backup continuously and a=
 fully bootable image using SuperDuper once a month. This way I at least ha=
ve all my tools and entire work setup handy (on the bootable backup) should=
 the laptop give up. I can just plug the external hard drive into a second =
Macbook Pro and I am able to work. I can then restore individual files from=
 the Time Machine backup as needed while I sort out the problems with the b=
roken down laptop. Once the broken laptop is repaired I can use the increme=
ntal Time Machine backup to restore everything to its former glory. That is=
, if the Time Machine backup disk does not break down in the meantime!

However, I only store the finished versions of sound recordings, albums, ph=
otos and videos on my Macbook. This takes up significantly less space on th=
e internal drive and makes the backup much easier/faster while protecting m=
e from running out of internal HDD space too quickly. However, it also mean=
s that only these final versions get the royal treatment of the double back=
up. The raw and intermediate versions are stored on the RAID system that I =
mentioned earlier. I only need them very rarely but still want to retain th=
em as I have had some instances where I just needed a particular recording =
that I knew I hadn't used because it was not relevant in the past but had n=
ow become the perfect sound effect, for example.

This RAID server is indeed set up as a RAID 5, however, I only do this beca=
use it features 4 HDD so I can be reasonably sure that there are enough HDD=
 left to re-sync after a failure. Plus, I am not sure that I could just tak=
e one of the drives out and plug it into an external case should the RAID s=
erver itself give up the ghost. With a RAID 1 I can do that since all HDD i=
n the array are an exact clone of the others. So for that reason I would us=
e a RAID 1 if I was to use two standard external HDD for a (Software) RAID =
system.

And I might do that soon as my current RAID server solution comes with some=
 more restrictions. Apart from the slow connection it takes about 5 minutes=
 to boot. Plus, in the case of a sudden power outage it needs to re-sync th=
e HDD for 2 days! Since in Darwin we have power outages at least once a mon=
th and I don't have time to wait for 2 days after each outage for my data t=
o sync (while praying that everything works as expected) I have given in an=
d purchased a UPS so at least the RAID server is protected from the power o=
utage for up to 30 minutes and I can shut it down properly. However, all of=
 this is a bit too cumbersome so for my upgrade of this system I really lik=
e your solution. I might just compare Retrospect and SoftRAID and see what =
the pro's and con's are. As for HDD's I thought about Thunderbolt, however,=
 USB 3 provides 5GB/s which is plenty enough for my and the extra 5BG/s do =
not justify the significantly higher costs of these drives for me. All that=
 said, the pain is not big enough yet with my current solution so that I wo=
uld shell out another couple hundred dollars for a new solution. I am getti=
ng a bit more into videos though lately, so this may change the situation v=
ery quickly.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your solution, it is very good indeed.

Lastly to answer Peter's "how do you know for sure that it's really working=
 as a set? And how will you know when one drive has died?" - The RAID serve=
r takes care of that. If everything is sweet and dandy it displays 4 green =
lights (one for each HDD) and it says something along the lines of "all dri=
ves are synchronised". Should there be a problem, I get a warning. The RAID=
 server even notifies me if a HDD is showing some oddities like producing d=
efect sectors. The server then alerts me that this is happening and that th=
ere is a risk that the HDD might fail in the future so I can already purcha=
se a replacement before this happens. I've never had to do this though (kno=
ck on wood).

Eric


On 03/04/2013, at 11:29 PM, Kin Corning <> wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> With apologies to others on the list if I'm responding with too much deta=
il on this specific topic...
>
> Yes, one external drive acts as primary storage for all media files (phot=
ographs, sound recordings, etc.) and gets backed up to each of 2 other iden=
tical external drives. My current drives are 6TB each, which is more than e=
nough for all the data I have. To be a bit more detailed, one of those back=
ups is a straight clone and the second is an "incremental" backup, both mai=
ntained using Retrospect (more on this in a moment). The advantage of this =
approach is that the clone is a "warm" copy identical to the primary (excep=
t for any intervening work since the last backup, which as I mentioned is n=
ever more than 1 day's work), and thus ready to use immediately should the =
primary drive fail. The clone, however, only has the current version of eac=
h file on disk. The 2nd "incremental" backup retains time history of any ch=
anged files, so for example, if a file is accidentally deleted or saved in =
an unintended edited state, or is somehow corrupted, it is possible to go b=
ack and restore an earlier version of the file. This "incremental" backup i=
s, however, in a particular format specific to the backup software and ther=
efore needs to be restored to a clean disk before the data can be used. Hav=
ing dual backups in this fashion gives the best of both worlds. The 3rd off=
site backup is also incremental, and is swapped back and forth with its ons=
ite twin as often as possible.
>
> (A small aside is that in this setup it is probably desirable to swap the=
 primary drive and the "warm" clone from time to time, so that the run-time=
 is evened out between the two drives and the primary is therefore less lik=
ely to fail. I have done this once over the course of 2 years or so.)
>
> (Another small aside is that whenever I download new digital photographs =
or sound recordings, I perform the two backups immediately notwithstanding =
my 1-or-2-times-per-day guideline before I do anything else to the files, a=
nd before I re-format the memory cards from the recorder/camera.)
>
> As mentioned I am using Retrospect for both types of backup. At the time =
I chose it some years ago, it was considered the enterprise-class standard =
for backup up Macintosh computers. Other than reputation, I picked it becau=
se it did some things I specifically needed which other software did not: n=
etwork backups, backups of mixed Mac and PC machines, and it drives my Sony=
 AIT drive which I use to back up selected data to tape. Retrospect has gon=
e through several changes in corporate ownership, and I believe is now oper=
ating as an independent company. There was one period where it seemed to be=
 receiving minimal support, though as best I can tell that is no longer the=
 case.
>
> There are probably simpler solutions if you don't need any of the "corpor=
ate" type features. If you are on a Mac, Time Machine would do a perfectly =
fine job of the "incremental" backups and any one of a number of products (=
Carbon Copy Cloner for example) could manage the "warm" clone.
>
> Incremental backups impose a storage overhead (to keep the earlier versio=
ns of the file), so if your working practices lead to large files changing =
regularly (for example if regular metadata changes are saved within a media=
 file), you may need to think about how this interplays with your backup st=
rategy. The backup software which performs the incremental backups will all=
ow you to specify policies about how many past stages are retained and at w=
hat intervals.
>
> There is nothing wrong with using a RAID configuration as the "primary" i=
n this strategy -- in fact it would be an improvement over my approach in p=
roviding some level, albeit imperfect, of intra-day protection. I just didn=
't go down this route again to keep the cost and complexity down. But I kno=
w people who are using Drobos, and others who are using G-Technology RAID b=
oxes, and are very happy with them. You just need to recognise they are not=
 a complete solution in themselves, and can be costly if they fail, as per =
my first note.
>
> My units connect to my Mac tower by eSATA, but in today's world USB3 or T=
hunderbolt would be better and more future-proof. As you say, any of these =
will be faster than Ethernet to a network storage box.
>
> I am aware that you can construct RAID arrays in the way you suggest with=
 software, either with external devices or indeed with internal drives with=
in your Mac/PC, but I do not have any direct experience with this approach.
>
> I'm repeating what you already said to some degree, but there are indeed =
different RAID strategies. As you said, RAID Level 1 is a mirror, and is of=
ten combined with RAID Level 0 ("striping"). RAID 0 often confuses people b=
ecause it has nothing to do with redundancy -- it simply spreads data acros=
s 2 or more drives for speed in access. Many of the larger capacity drives =
you can buy today (including the ones I have) in fact have 2 drives interna=
lly in a RAID 0 configuration for speed, but look like a single large drive=
 to the computer, and the RAID provides no backup protection. RAID Level 1 =
(a mirror) is the most secure but least space-efficient of the redundant RA=
ID configurations. RAID Level 5 is possibly a better choice for redundancy =
-- in practice is is very secure and is much more space efficient than RAID=
 1.
>
> Kin
>
> --- In  Eric Fassbender <> wrote=
:
> >
> > Hi Kin,
> >
> > I agree that there is still the element of the RAID server that can fai=
l and in your case it has happened, so apparently it is not unlikely. So I =
really like your solution/approach. Am I assuming correctly that you use on=
e drive that always stays the primary and that then gets backed up to the t=
wo other external drives? If so, what software are you using to perform thi=
s feat or do you do it manually? I would be very interested to hear your fe=
edback as although I am still confident in my RAID, it has the limitation t=
hat it is slowed down by its only I/O connection - a 1GBit Ethernet connect=
ion. So I was eyeing a USB3 RAID solution using 2 or 3 standard external HD=
D and SoftRAID 4.5 (Mac), however, I am wondering whether your solution off=
ers any benefits over a software RAID?
> >
> > For anyone who is not that familiar with RAID systems, there are differ=
ent types of RAID. What we need for data protection/safety is RAID 1, a 'Mi=
rrored Set'. This can be 2 or 3 even 4 drives and they all hold the same mi=
rrored data. So always check the specifications because there are many RAID=
 solutions out there that offer RAID 0, which makes data transfer super fas=
t but does not offer protection against data loss. So if you are in the mar=
ket, look for RAID 1.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> > On 03/04/2013, at 7:49 PM, Kin Corning <> wrote:
> >
> > > I would offer some comments about using desktop RAID systems, which h=
ave been mentioned in this thread.
> > >
> > > When RAID arrays are used in Storage Area Networks or other such conf=
igurations in professional datacenters, *everything* is redundant -- the se=
rvers, the disk storage, power supplies, RAID controllers, and the intercon=
nections between server and disk. In a desktop RAID unit, typically it is o=
nly the disk drives themselves which are protected. And, while a disk is th=
e part most likely to fail, other failures can occur as well.
> > >
> > > I was reminded of these limitations the hard way a couple years ago w=
hen I had a desktop RAID unit fail, apparently (I'll never know for sure) d=
ue to a failed controller board in the box. The device was (just) out of wa=
rranty, the manufacturer (a major well-known firm) would not offer any serv=
icing, and their only suggestion was to buy another identical unit, transfe=
r the drives, and see if the data was intact. I did a fair bit of explorati=
on and could not find any third-party who had the expertise to service the =
unit, which became an expensive scrap job.
> > >
> > > I was backed up separately, so my data was protected, but out of curi=
osity I contacted one of the best known firms in the UK for a quote on data=
 restoration, and the answer was =A33000 to give it a try with no guarantee=
 of success. This may sound crazy but is understandable given the complexit=
y of how data is distributed across drives in the various RAID strategies, =
and the fact that the data may or may not have been corrupted.
> > >
> > > These desktop RAID units may still be attractive to some in offering =
a degree of real-time protection against a drive failure, but in my own set=
up (used primarily for photography) I have concluded this benefit isn't wor=
th the expense and complexity. I have moved to a simpler system with 4 iden=
tical large-capacity drives, 3 of which are onsite and 1 of which is always=
 offsite. Every day (twice a day if I am doing a lot of work) the primary d=
rive gets backed up to each of the 2 other onsite drives, and as often as i=
s practical one is swapped with the offsite device, to keep the data protec=
ted from fire or burglary as up-to-date as possible. In this setup, I may l=
ose a few hours of work if a drive fails, but on the other hand the system =
is instantly restorable and the cost of replacing the failed unit is much l=
ower.
> > >
> > > Not to state what may be obvious, but if you choose to use one of the=
se units notwithstanding, it is important to remember it is not a backup de=
vice. RAID offers real-time protection against a drive failure, but an acci=
dentally-deleted file will be deleted across the RAID array, and any softwa=
re-generated file corruption likewise may be duplicated in each 'copy' of t=
he file. So even if you employ one of these units to protect your work intr=
a-day, you still need to back up to separate devices regularly.
> > >
> > > Kin
> > >
> > > --- In  "sounds.images" <sounds.imag=
es@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks everyone for you words of support and replies, a new la=
ptop has been ordered and I do have a caddy already, so will put it in ther=
 and have a go at transferring it of it is possible to recover them..
> > > >
> > > > Seen in PC world.co.uk is a USB 3.0 1tb external drive for =A359.00=
 so may grab one..
> > > >
> > > > Will update as soon as I can.
> > > >
> > > > Simon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In  "sounds.images" <sounds.im=
ages@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Last night the other half shut down the laptop as normal before b=
ed. This morning it was dead. It would power on and fans would spin but not=
hing. Took it to my parents and tried their hard drive in my machine.... No=
thing..
> > > > >
> > > > > Tried my hd on their machine and it tried to boot but went straig=
ht to blue screen of death twice...
> > > > >
> > > > > So never put off your back ups. I have lost every recording I mad=
e since September. It was on the cards to do this little job this weekend, =
but it is too late.. Will try again when I get a replacement machine. This =
was completely unforeseen..
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh well... Lesson learned. Never put off the most important job o=
f all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Simon.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>










<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>
  • 8. Re: So, I have lost everything..., Eric Fassbender <=
Admin

The University of NSW School of Computer and Engineering takes no responsibility for the contents of this archive. It is purely a compilation of material sent by many people to the naturerecordists mailing list. It has not been checked for accuracy nor its content verified in any way. If you wish to get material removed from the archive or have other queries about the archive e-mail Andrew Taylor at this address: andrewt@cse.unsw.EDU.AU