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2. Re: R-44 issue

Subject: 2. Re: R-44 issue
From: "Jez" tempjez
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:14 am ((PDT))
Hi Dave,

thanks for this - will take a look into the firmware issue.  In terms of th=
e hydrophones (& contact mics) the best way to deal with these into any rec=
order with an xlr or a dual xlr/1/4 inch combo input, is to use an impedanc=
e transforming adaptor from 1/4 inch to XLR.


--- In  Dave Bird <> wrot=
> Hello all,=C3=82=C2=A0
> I can't say I'm an expert in any of this, but I do own a R-44 and have ha=
d problems with unbalanced inputs and interference/noise - first discovered=
 this problem using Jez' custom built hydrophones.
> The noise stems from the display screen as far as I can remember - mine c=
reated a periodic electrical sound=C3=82=C2=A0(almost mechanical, sounded q=
uite like a mini disc recorder/player).=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=82=C2=A0Can't seem t=
o find the information I had previously read online now, but I have come ac=
ross other people complaining about the same problem.=C3=82=C2=A0
> One solution was to upgrade the R-44 with this company: http://www.oade.c=
> Have also come across suggestions that a firmware update might solve thes=
e problems - I haven't got that far:=C3=82=C2=A0http://www.rolandsystemsgro=
> Not sure if thats off the mark or at all useful, just thought I'd share m=
y frustrating experience!
> Cheers,=C3=82=C2=A0
> Dave=C3=82=C2=A0
> ________________________________
>  From: Jez <>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012, 10:19
> Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: R-44 issue
> =C3=82=C2=A0
> Hi Greg,
> er....
> firstly, in 35 years of being involved with field recording i've never co=
me across this type of issue with a mic / recorder match when using 'decent=
' mics & recorders.
> DPA's are not built to be fed into wireless transmitters - that is just o=
ne of the options for them. They are built, these days, to be used with a v=
ariety of different options.
> No recorder, not even the cheap Zoom's, have trouble handling balanced or=
 unbalanced mics (other than issues of the quality of the signal & noise of=
 the pre-amps). To clarify my experience: I tutor on the Wildeye courses & =
elsewhere so we get students with all kinds of mics & all levels of recorde=
rs. Over the years (on these courses & elsewhere) i've used hundreds of dif=
ferent mic / recorder combinations & have never come across these issues.
> I use Sound Devices gear, so i'm used to spending decent money to get dec=
ent kit, however its simply wrong to imply that recorders of the level of t=
he R-44 isn't very good. In various ways its a better recorder than the FR2=
LE for example. By the way, if you're having issues with the FR2LE with unb=
alanced inputs its not the recorder - we never have any issues with them on=
 any unbalanced mics, piezo based units etc.
> As I've tried to explain already, this issue appears to be a very specifi=
c issue between the R-44 / R-26 & the DPA's - but it doesn't happen on any =
other recorder - from the cheapest (with xlr inputs) to the higher cost uni=
ts. Therefore it is not an issue related to the issues you mention as lots =
of these other recorders don't have transformer balanced inputs.
> ta.
> --- In  Gregory O'Drobinak <gmodrobinak@=
> wrote:
> >
> > Jez:
> >
> > Please forgive my earlier comment, but I couldn't resist! Really, it wa=
s meant
> > to point out that there are issues with mic preamps and mics that don't=
 match up
> > well and this is based on sub-optimal design parameters.
> >
> > The DPA mics are not balanced out of the box; they are single-ended out=
put mics
> > that are designed to be fed into the single-ended preamps that are=C3=
=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0built-in to
> > the wireless transmitters commonly sold with these mics. I assume that =
there is
> > a cable adapter that is sold to make the 4060s 'look' like a balanced o=
> > but in reality it appears that DPA uses some tricks that fall short of =
the mark.
> > This is problem #1: the 4060s are not really balanced output mics.
> >
> > The second issue is that most inexpensive recorders do not have transfo=
> > balanced inputs, which can usually handle an unbalanced input gracefull=
y. The
> > preamps in my FR-2LE, for example, are 'balanced' inputs but this is do=
> > electronically without the use of a transformer. The net result is that=
> > various gain conditions the FR-2LE will not work well at all for single=
> > inputs, such as a piezo transducer or a single-ended (not balanced) inp=
ut from a
> > mic or instrument via an XLR connector. Various noises, hum and other a=
> > can be heard as the mic gain is increased. So using a single-ended outp=
> > device, such as the 4060, into the poorly electronically balanced input=
 of the
> > R-44 results in mayhem instead of nicety. This has nothing to do with c=
> > draw, but how well the signals are balanced at the input of the recorde=
> >
> > The 4060s work well on the SD series because=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0I b=
elieve that they=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0have
> > transformer balanced inputs. I don't have time to go through the theory=
 of all
> > of this, but you can research it on the web. Check what Rane has to say=
> > balkanced vs. unbalanced.
> >
> > So the rule of thumb is use truly balanced mics into balanced preamp in=
puts and
> > use unbalanced mics into preamps designed specifically to handle unbala=
> > inputs. Most manufacturers are not going to tell you how well their bal=
anced mic
> > preamps are going to work with unbalanced inputs. Below a certain (high=
) price
> > point, you get what you paid for.
> >
> > Sorry for the bad news.
> >
> > - Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jez <tempjez@>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Fri, June 22, 2012 2:50:52 AM
> > Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: R-44 issue
> >
> > =C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0
> > thanks Grant, according to DPA the r-44 supplies more than enough power=
> > handle even 4 of the DPA4060's connected & these issues appear even if =
just one
> > is attached. The powering issue also wouldn't explain the pick up of th=
> > internal electronics of the recorder (regardless of mic position) & i'm=
 more &
> > more convinced that its some strange way the Roland recorders are built=
> > happens to come up with these issues when using this particular mic. Th=
at said,
> > one chap who also has the R-44 & the DPA4060's has mentioned that his w=
ork fine
> > !
> >
> > arghhhhhh !
> >
> > --- In  "Grant Finlay" <grant@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's called "motor boating"
> > > The non-techy explanation is that it can't supply enough power to the=
 mics, you
> > >need to roll off some of the bottom end to get around this.
> > > Or use an outboard PH48v supply.
> > > The SD302 has this issue too with various mics, sanken cs-1 etc..
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Grant.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

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