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Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)

Subject: Re: MS Processing (was: Muriemike and falling snow)
From: "Klas Strandberg" klasstrandberg
Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:33 pm ((PST))
Thanks, I understand and agree.

Klas.

  At 23:40 2009-12-17, you wrote:
>Just a little further -
>
>On principle M-S processing is most effective and predictable on
>phase-coherent / single point stereo, as is produced by Mid-Side, Blumlein=
,
>or XY.  With the two mic capsules separated and thus less phase-cohrerent =
-
>as in Binaural, Spaced Omni, and somewhat ORTF and SASS, there's less of a
>clear "oh yes this is what it does."  Thus its use becomes more an aesthet=
ic
>choice, or a choice particular to a given recording and what sort of image
>you're going for.
>
>There's great info in the Waves S1 manual (I can send PDF if anyone's
>interested, ping me off-list.)
>
>Just re-reading it, and the description of Shuffling is informative.
>
>-jeremiah
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:42 AM, Klas Strandberg <> wrot=
e:
>
> >
> >
> > jeremiah,
> >
> > Do you think it would be productive to encode binaural sound into MS
> > and do the kind of manipulations you describe?
> > Then back again?
> >
> > Klas.
> >
> >
> > At 00:44 2009-12-16, you wrote:
> > >regarding MS processing:
> > >
> > >Izotope's Ozone mastering plug-in contains internal MS dematrix/matrix=
, so
> > >you can EQ mid and side separately, a-la Rob's technique.
> > >
> > >I've been using it here for some other tasks. It's a powerful EQ with =
both
> > >FIR and "normal" modes, and a matching function which builds a FIR fil=
ter
> > to
> > >match one sound's spectrum to another's. Also includes a limiter,
> > >compressor, and multiband dynamics all in the same plugin instance.
> > >
> > >Downsides: relative to other EQs it's processor hungry (I can run mayb=
e
> > two
> > >instances on my dual-2ghz mac G5, many more on an Intel mac). Also the
> > >interface in general is somewhat complex, especially the presets load/=
save
> > >area. To be expected with so many features I suppose.
> > >
> > >It's US$200 which for a professional plug-in is quite reasonable, thou=
gh
> > >it's obviously MUCH more than using the free Soundhack MS plugs.
> > >
> > >Anyway, it's been a valuable addition here and for anyone heavily into=
 MS
> > >processing it may be worth a look.
> > >
> > >(no affiliation with izotope - just an end user.)
> > >
> > >-jeremiah
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Rob Danielson
> <<type%40uwm.edu>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 4:45 PM +0100 12/15/09, Klas Strandberg wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >The hole is a consequence of the two mikes, boosting HF sideways a=
nd
> > > > >can only (...?) be heard (in a bothersome
> > > > >way..?) when you record awidespread "sparkle all
> > > > >around" as when the grain snow hit the frozen
> > > > >leaves in this almost panorama way.
> > > > >
> > > > >A more "common" stereo picture is at the the ending of
> > > > ><http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3>
> > > > http://www.telinga.com/gallery/tripple_birdfeed.mp3
> > > > >where you don=B4t
> > > > >clearly hear the hole, as there are no audible HF getting boosted
> > > > >from the sides. Birds are flying between the feeder and a tree at =
the
> > > > >left, and I don't hear any bothersome change of wing sounds over t=
he
> > area.
> > > > >I have tried out a prototype where the mic capsules point forward,
> > > > >not to "shade" themselves, but then I loose some of the "crispines=
s"
> > > > >that I like and that so easily can be filtered, then also reducing
> > > > >some of the mic self noise.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, all stereo arrays have draw-backs and
> > > > one's preference can depend on what one considers
> > > > to be more natural, more striking, more accurate,
> > > > etc.
> > > >
> > > > Some listeners prefer the additional HF contrast
> > > > between the LEFT and RIGHT speakers because it
> > > > gives a sense that the sound horizon has more
> > > > spread. However, even omni mic capsules are
> > > > slightly treble-centric-- the "center" of their
> > > > polar pattern is more sensitive to HF than the
> > > > sides (usually). When the mic capsules are
> > > > directed out or (opposing) towards the sides, the
> > > > LEFT speaker and RIGHT speaker contrast is
> > > > heightened. In directing both capsules straight
> > > > forward, (oriented perpendicular to a flat
> > > > boundary or tangential to a spherical or curved
> > > > one), the center of the field is rendered with
> > > > more HF emphasis. Moving the capsule diaphragm
> > > > out of the pressure zone tends to simplify the
> > > > "cues" as the capsule is no longer in the
> > > > "pressure zone" that comes with mounting the
> > > > capsule with the diaphragm flush to the boundary.
> > > > There are many opinions about the plusses and
> > > > minus's of capsule orientation. I personally
> > > > feel, given the effects of the options, that
> > > > front-facing capsule orientation is more
> > > > "natural" in that it establishes a "front stage"
> > > > where sounds become symmetrically darker as they
> > > > move towards the sides. The head-spacing/timing
> > > > differences are preserved and there is plenty of
> > > > LEFT - RIGHT contrast and horizontal spread. (One
> > > > stereo array with flush-mounted capsules that
> > > > seems to be an exception is the SASS. I've never
> > > > been able to do side-by side comparisons with
> > > > one.)
> > > >
> > > > Creating a HF boost in the center of the stereo
> > > > field has other advantages. Traditional EQ
> > > > affects center and side tonality _at the same
> > > > time_. If one uses standard parametric EQ to
> > > > reduce extra crispness at 4K Hz from hard left
> > > > and hard right, the crispness/tonality of the
> > > > center is also lessened. I think better overall
> > > > side-to-center tonal balance after EQ can be
> > > > achieved with forward-facing capsule orientation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >If "State of the Art" measurements + a good middle is required, on=
ly
> > > > >the best M/S system will do and then we enter into another world, =
you
> > > > know.
> > > > >Still, I must say, - I have heard professional M/S recordings whic=
h
> > > > >have been less "alive" than from binaural and semi-binaural set-up=
's,
> > > > >some M/S has even been "flat".
> > > >
> > > > Some listeners prefer a very EVEN stereo field
> > > > where the sounds are more closely positioned
> > > > across the middle. Coincident stereo arrays like
> > > > X-Y and M-S can do this (though the later needs
> > > > to be carefully adjusted). These arrays tend* to
> > > > have less left-right contrast and with the X-Y
> > > > array, sounds can feel bunched together in the
> > > > center. With M-S and X-Y there is no timing
> > > > difference analogous to the spread of the ears
> > > > and no baffle or boundary cues produced as with
> > > > our heads. *Note many recordists that use M-S
> > > > rigs tend to lower the level of the center mic to
> > > > create more left right contrast.
> > > >
> > > > There's another way, in post, to adjust the
> > > > tonality of the Center and the Sides of the
> > > > stereo field separately. It involves using "plug
> > > > ins" in the mixing chain. We first discussed
> > > > this technique in this list a year or so ago.
> > > > Here's a screen shot of the chain I've been using:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/public/media/MixingChain_EQBetweenM-SPlu=
gs.jpg
> > > >
> > > > I've been mixing material generated by a number
> > > > of stereo arrays over the past few weeks and
> > > > sometime this technique works very well and other
> > > > times not. I'm looking for patterns. Rob D.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Best wishes from Klas and a snowy Sweden.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> >
> > >----------------------------------------------------------
> > >jeremiah moore | SOUND |
> <jmoore%40northstation.net>
> > >http://www.jeremiahmoore.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> >
> > >
> > >"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
> > >sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krau=
se
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
> > S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
> > Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
> > email:  <telinga%40bahnhof.se>
> > website: www.telinga.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>jeremiah moore | SOUND | 
>http://www.jeremiahmoore.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
email: 
website: www.telinga.com












"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause


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