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1. Re: OLYMPUS LS-10 VS DAT RECORDINGS UPLOADED

Subject: 1. Re: OLYMPUS LS-10 VS DAT RECORDINGS UPLOADED
From: "Vicki Powys" vpowys
Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:09 pm ((PDT))
Hi Rob,

OK since you asked!  I will upload to the naturerecordists web page,  
my LS-10 beeper test that compares 16 bit with 24 bit.

I was using an ME67 with the LS-10, set  3.5 metres from an  
electronic metronome.  Settings were Low sensitivity, record volume  
was on 10.  Meter was registering around -18 dB.  Low cut was off.   
First clip is 44/16, second clip is 48/24, as set via the LS-10  
menu.  After the transfer to my computer, I boosted the volume of  
both files by 10 dB (using Peak), then converted the 48/24 file back  
to 44/16.  I combined the two files, with a brief silence to separate  
them.  Then converted to MP3.

At every stage of this process, I could not detect a difference in  
noise levels between the two files.

The first section is 44/16, the second section is 48/24.

If you can suggest a different way of doing this test, I am happy to  
try it!

Vicki Powys
Australia



On 09/07/2008, at 2:42 PM, Rob Danielson wrote:

> Hi Vicky--
>
> Thanks for the carefully confirmed findings. I'm sure those with
> LS-10's are following along closely.  Is there a chance you could
> share short clips of your low sensitivity level "10" recordings made
> at 16 and 24 bits?  Do you happen to recall what the record meter
> activity was like at Low Sens "10."  Its possible that one could push
> the improved noise performance at Low Sens level "10"  even a tad
> further. Rob D.
>
> At 10:51 AM +1000 7/9/08, Vicki Powys wrote:
>> Rob & Raimund,
>>
>> With the ME67 and LS-10 recorder, I've now tried comparing volume 3
>> and volume 4 at high sensitivity setting, against volume 10 at low
>> sensitivity setting, boosting the low-10 file (by 5-6 dB) to match
>> the levels of the other two files.
>>
>> It does seem to me that you are still better off to use LOW SENS
>> setting on 10, there is less noise, compared to 4 or less on high  
>> sens.
>>
>> I then compared Low 10 at 24 bit and 16 bit settings but could not
>> really detect any big difference in noise levels for the 2 settings.
>>
>> I might add that using the ME67 with the LS-10, on low sensitivity
>> (if you have a good signal), really does give an excellent result,
>> comparable to what I could get with my old TCD D10 DAT recorder (the
>> DAT still has a slight edge but the LS-10 is a hell of a lot  
>> lighter!)
>>
>> Vicki Powys
>> Australia
>>
>> On 07/07/2008, at 6:26 PM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>>
>>>  Vicki--
>>>  Based on your tests so far, is this rule of thumb correct for  
>>> when to
>>>  use High of Low Sensitivity on the LS-10?
>>>
>>>  Use the High Sensitivity setting on the LS-10 if the meter (in High
>>>  Sens mode) indicates that level of "4" or higher is required. Use a
>>>  Low Sensitivity setting of "10" if the meter (in High Sens mode)
>>>  indicates a level of "3" or lower is required. Rob D.
>>>
>>>  = = = = =
>>>
>>>  At 4:51 PM +1000 7/7/08, Vicki Powys wrote:
>>>>  Sorry that my last message to Rob was not quite right! I herewith
>>>>  make a correction.
>>>>
>>>>  More indoor tests today (using a softly beeping electronic
>>>>  metronome): For loud sounds e.g. lyrebirds, if you have a strong
>>>>  signal at high sensitivity volume 2, you will get a better (less
>>>>  noisy) result if you switch to low sensitivity and volume 10. The
>>>>  signal will be about the SAME, but the noise a lot less. This rule
>>>>  applies if you are using ME67, WL-183s, or built-in mics.
>>>>
>>>>  However if you need the recorder on high sensitivity volume 5  
>>>> to get
>>>>  a decent signal, it is not worth trying to use low sensitivity on
>>>>  volume 10 then boosting the signal later (if you do, the noise  
>>>> levels
>>>>  will be very roughly the same).
>>>>
>>>>  I have done more tests with the WL-183s, on high sensitivity  
>>>> volume 5
>>>>  (a good average level for recording birdsong). They give a very
>>>>  slightly LESS strong signal than the built in mics, but when the
>>>>  signal levels are equalized, the 183s are still a bit less noisy.
>>>>  The 183s seem to work best (less noise) with the low cut ON,
>>>>  alternatively they need a bit of low roll off below 500 hz.
>>>>
>>>>  Vicki Powys
>>>>  Australia
>>>>
>>>>  On 07/07/2008, at 9:17 AM, Vicki Powys wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Hi Rob,
>>>>>
>>>>>  Yes I have tried lining up two files, one recorded in high
>>>>>  sensitivity volume 2, the other on low sensitivity volume 10. I
>>>>>  then
>>>>>  increased the levels of the low sens. file by 5 dB (also 7 dB) to
>>>>>  match the levels (of the recorded bird sounds or whatever) of the
>>>>>  high sens. file. The exact amount of increase needed I am still
>>>>>  working on, but it seems to be about 5-7 dB. Even with this
>>>>>  increase, the noise levels are still lower with the low sens.  
>>>>> file,
>>>>>  especially the FIZZ noise.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Vicki
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 06/07/2008, at 2:01 PM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  At 11:52 AM +1000 7/6/08, Vicki Powys wrote:
>>>>>>>  All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Using an ME67 connected to my LS-10, I have done a bit more
>>>>>>>  testing
>>>>>>>  in the field (and indoors) of noise levels using high vs low
>>>>>>>  sensitivity. For lyrebirds, I do seem to get a better result
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>  low sensitivity at volume 10, instead of high sensitivity at
>>>>>>>  volume
>>>>>>>  2. There is much less FIZZ.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  But also, surprisingly, I seemed to get better results  
>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>>  when
>>>>>>>  recording Regent Honeyeaters (they have a soft melodious call),
>>>>>>>  using
>>>>>>>  low sensitivity at volume 10, then raising the levels to match
>>>>>>>  what I
>>>>>>>  had recorded at high sensitivity at volume 5. Again, much less
>>>>>>>  FIZZ
>>>>>>>  on low sens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Did you confirm this with matched playback levels? If not,
>>>>>>  place the
>>>>>>  tests made with high and low sensitivity one after the other on
>>>>>>  different tracks in a time-line. Boost the playback volume of
>>>>>>  the low
>>>>>>  sensitivity one to match the playback level of the louder (high
>>>>>>  sensitivity) one. You should be able to hear the difference  
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>  "fizz" noise level where the two files join.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  This seems to be a very complex issue! More testing needed!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I haven't tried these tests with the WL-183s, but would  
>>>>>>> suspect a
>>>>>>>  similar result.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Perhaps. The WL-183's are fairly sensitive mics but not in the
>>>>>>  same
>>>>>>  ballpark with the ME-67.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Re my binaural setup, and your comment Rob (see below), where
>>>>>>>  do I
>>>>>>>  find Aaron's DSM temple mount set up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Aaron uses a WHB/N Windscreen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <<http://www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#whb>http:// 
>>>>>> www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#whb>http://
>>>>>>  www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#whb
>>>>>>  I'm not sure if Leonard
>>>>>>  sells just the mount-windscreen or not but you can see how his
>>>>>>  design
>>>>>>  works in the pictures. Rob D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Vicki Powys
>>>>>>>  Australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On 03/07/2008, at 12:31 AM, Raimund Specht wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Rob Danielson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  A metronome at 5 metres might be a pretty "hot" reference
>>>>>>>>>  signal.
>>>>>>>>>  Its possible that the "Low Sensitivity" setting might not
>>>>>>>>>  provide
>>>>>>>>>  sufficient gain for quieter sounds and environments. Its  
>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>  further investigation, for sure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Coincidentally, earlier today, I thought of Aaron's DSM  
>>>>>>>>> temple
>>>>>>>>>  mount
>>>>>>>>>  preference in relation to your WL-183 rig priorities. Rob D.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Yes, this is a relatively loud test signal. Though, I believe
>>>>>>>>  that
>>>>>>>>  this is an adequate model for a loudly singing Lyrebird.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  For recording softer sounds, one should perhaps better use the
>>>>>>>>  HIGH
>>>>>>>>  MIC SENSE setting. The problem with the Lyrebird was obviously
>>>>>>>>  that
>>>>>>>>  the REC LEVEL was turned down to 2, which caused the higher
>>>>>>>>  overall
>>>>>>>>  noise level. In other words, it is not appropriate to  
>>>>>>>> attenuate
>>>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>>>  microphone signal and then amplify it again in the next stage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Note that the MIC 2 input of the TASCAM DR-1 also provides a
>>>>>>>>  relatively low gain (input clipping level: -28 dBu), while its
>>>>>>>>  inherent noise floor (-115 dBu(A)) is still good enough for  
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>  K6/ME6x series.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Regards,
>>>>>>>>  Raimund
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>  "While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>>>>>  sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie
>>>>>  Krause
>>>>>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------
>>>
>>>  "While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>>>  sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie
>>>  Krause
>>>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> "While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
> sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie  
> Krause
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




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