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RE: Re: Bear witness

Subject: RE: Re: Bear witness
From: "Martyn Stewart" <>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:55:52 -0700
As much as this is very close to my heart, I think we should quit this
thread, you know me, I could talk about this forever but I think this is the
wrong place to do so.
We do have another group to discuss this or any other topic not connected
with naturerecordists and you are all welcome to join this group. I promise
you that there won't be too much intervening.


-----Original Message-----
From:  [mailto:

 On Behalf Of Rich Peet
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:55 AM
Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: Bear witness

Until I can see the published reports on both populations of our
Cricket frog in MN I will not acknowledge that your southern
populations are even the same species as the MN populations.  I await
those reports and suspect it will not be concluded this year.
Not that there will be any agreement as to what is a species when that
happens but I suspect you will care as little no matter what the results.


--- In  Walter Knapp <>
> From: "Rich Peet" <>
> > The MN Northern Cricket Frog is neither "accidental" or "occasional"
> > to MN.  It is a breeding species that needs state protection.
> That is up to the state. It's a tiny portion of the entire distribution 
> of a breeding species. If you think it's a separate species, start by 
> getting the herp community to agree on that. Publish the necessary 
> scientific papers showing why.
> > The waiting list has become a dead list for federal endangered species
> > protection.  State protection is the only protection that can be
> > currently expected.
> In this case, the Northern Cricket Frog is not as a species in any 
> danger. It's one of the more numerous frogs in North America. As
such it 
> does not qualify for federal protection and it is inappropriate to
> the federal system.
> However if the state wishes to designate their fragment of the Northern 
> Cricket Frog for their own special protection, that's a separate issue, 
> entirely up to the state. It is, however, entirely a emotional issue.
> > For the current situation on the Bush record for federal endangered
> > species protection you can start here.
> >
> Again, this has no bearing on the MN Northern Cricket Frog population.
> > The tools to protect an eco-system rather than a specific species are
> > more important and more scary as we never have had a good evaluation
> > and implementation technique for federal protection of areas. For that
> > you have to look more broadly at what has occured in just the last 5
> > years. 
> Indeed, the protection of a species without protection of it's habitat 
> and ecosystem is a joke.
> Also the idea that a particular ecosystem would continue as is for all 
> time is a bit unrealistic. Change is the name of the game, with or 
> without the effects of the human species.
> Walt

"Microphones are not ears,
Loudspeakers are not birds,
A listening room is not nature."
Klas Strandberg 
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