canberrabirds

FW: Chatline and Birdline

To: CanberraBirds <>
Subject: FW: Chatline and Birdline
From: "David McDonald (personal)" <>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:23:15 +1100
Hi, this is what I sent to Julian directly:
Hi Julian, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I agree completely with what I think you are presenting as the underlying principles:
- give people an easy way of both entering and retrieving data
- minimising the number of times the data need to be entered
- ensuring that COG and BA get the data in their respective data bases.

That said, I am not supportive of using Eremaea as the cornerstone for this as:
- it does not include key data fields that COG has decided it needs, including (especially) lat/long for reports other than lists
- it is a commercial company based interstate - we know nothing about its future - the principle (for me) is that our data should be under our control, not handed over to someone else to own/manage/control.

An additional issue raised subsequently is that Eremaea Pty Ltd has directly refused to accept records coded for COG's area of concern. They have to be either ACT or NSW. That highlights the data control/ownership considerations.

Regards - David

On 11/11/2011 1:17 PM, Julian Robinson wrote:

Thanks for responding both.  It still beats me that it is so impossible to have a DISCUSSION about this kind of thing on the Chatline! 

 

I’ve received more than a few responses but all of them are backchannel, it is quite bizarre. What is wrong with using the COG Discussion Group / Chatline to actually discuss things, it would be so efficient and useful?

 

Because people write to me backchannel I am obliged to keep it there but it is extremely inefficient to have four different conversations about the same thing with much unshared information that could benefit many people, including those watching from the sidelines.

 

Anyway on your points I absolutely agree with what you say, including the problems of using Eremaea  and David’s three principles.

 

I raised the matter in ignorance of half the facts assuming it might flush out whatever thinking has already been applied to the matter and hoping perhaps to jolt some discussion and even action if there was none happening already. As it turns out I am surprised (predictably surprised if you can have such a thing) to receive, in addition to ‘hear, hear’ emails and some from Eremaea enthusiasts, a couple from Michael Robbins to say that he has a project already running on the matter in conjunction with the old committee, based wholly or partly around the idea that some kind of COG Database front end might be incorporated into the new website work.  I’ve mentioned to Michael that we have the tender out for website and it contains nothing about such a facility -- he is going to raise it with the committee next week and get some information on the idea into the public domain about it, perhaps the December Gang-gang.  I assume Paul you are aware/involved on this, at least I hope so.

 

I was spruiking Eremaea only as a discussion point, and because I got such an angry email from them.  If they were prepared to  work with COG on the problems raised, I’m sure we could quite satisfactorily use their system as a front end with much of the work already done, but agree they would have to re-jig things to suit and as mentioned they don’t seem to be willing to change how they operate.

 

The other possibility on the table is Michael Robbins’ plan, but my own belief is we should explore the idea of getting some kind of software utility (an app) that attaches to whatever people have at home and that sends entered data off to whatever websites you ask it to. In my case it would attach to Bird Journal and with one click send my reports to COG, BA and Eremaea so everybody gets what they want quickly, and no data is lost. More important is that I actually would submit my data, whereas I usually don’t now and won’t while the situation is so inefficient; I simply will not re-enter all my data twice.

 

I’ve asked the makers of Bird Journal if they could/would do such an app, but if not then maybe COG could commission something?

 

Julian

 

 

 

 

From: martin butterfield [m("gmail.com","martinflab");">]
Sent: 11 November 2011 10:19
To: David McDonald (personal)
Cc: Julian Robinson; Paul Fennell
Subject: Re: [canberrabirds] FW: Chatline and Birdline

 

Another issue with Eremaea is the insistence of the owner on restricting the coverage of the sites to the State political boundaries.  Thus to cover, the COG AOI (which while possibly not ideal is a lot closer to biogeographic sense than the political boundaries; and has been agreed by the bird clubs) it is necessary to follow two completely separate lists. 

The owner was absolutely inflexible on that point, illustrating David's concern about the dangers of losing control.  That is why I decided not to continue

Martin

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM, David McDonald (personal) <m("dnmcdonald.id.au","david");">> wrote:

Hi Julian, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I agree completely with what I think you are presenting as the underlying principles:
- give people an easy way of both entering and retrieving data
- minimising the number of times the data need to be entered
- ensuring that COG and BA get the data in their respective data bases.

That said, I am not supportive of using Eremaea as the cornerstone for this as:
- it does not include key data fields that COG has decided it needs, including (especially) lat/long for reports other than lists
- it is a commercial company based interstate - we know nothing about its future - the principle (for me) is that our data should be under our control, not handed over to someone else to own/manage/control.

Regards - David



On 10/11/2011 9:56 AM, Julian Robinson wrote:

Please ignore my earlier message that was not well phrased. What I meant to offer was an observation and suggestion about the various options we have for reporting bird sightings around Canberra.  It has been discussed before but I, and I am sure many others, have missed some important points.  I did not mean to write an advertisement for Birdline (Eremaea), and was originally only calling for an obvious rationalisation one way or the other, but now that I’ve learnt more about its existing capabilities, the below now is a bit of an advertisement for changing from members entering sightings to the COG database to members entering via Birdline.

 

At the moment, when a COG member returns from a successful day at Kelly's swamp, they might decide to do the following with their observations:

 

- enter them into their own private list/record system, which might be a paper book or computer or phone based software etc.

- enter them to the COG Database (from where they can eventually find their way to the national BA system)

- enter them to Birdline (Eremaea)

- and then post the fact that they saw a sandpiper or godwit to the Chatline.

 

Very few people  will do all of these, and even less will do all of them regularly.  As a result many good observations are missed by either of the databases.  The integrity and usefulness of these databases is proportional to the number of entries and the completeness of the entries made, so we are clearly not making the best use of resources to split a fewer number of reported sightings in several directions.

 

The technology exists, if we want to use it, to either combine some of these databases or more likely, the entry of data to them, so that people only have to enter things once or twice. My suggestion is that because of the significant advantages, COG should in its own interests and the interests of its members, investigate the rationalisation of data entry.

 

I understand that Birdline already offers the capability to do much of the rationalisation and therefore we should seriously consider using it instead of entering to the COG database.

 

- entering to Birdline is much simpler and more reliable.

- the information posted to Birdline is (if you tick a box) passed to BA and therefore eventually finds its way back to the COG database so you are getting your info to ALL the relevant databases with a single posting.

- data on Birdline is accessible to all, that is, you can interrogate it to find out when you last saw a Bar-tailed Godwit, or (I think) how many have been seen in the ACT region, and when etc.

- you can elect to be notified automatically (by email from Birdline) at every sighting of nominated birds, so you could know quickly as soon as a Painted Snipe etc arrived by a system that already exists.

 

There are complications including how to handle paper-based entries, ownership and integrity of data, possibly COG paying for the Eremaea service, and getting people familiar with a new system and its capabilities, but these are easily solvable and I believe it would be in the best interests of COG, its database and its members to embrace some kind of rationalisation as soon as possible.

 

The above system could be further improved by modifying some home-based bird database systems so that they are able to automatically submit each report to BIrdline.  Then even people who elected to keep their own home-based system would only have to enter data once.  Imagine the extra number of sightings that would end up in the COG database if we had such a system.  Is there any reason that I’ve missed for COG to keep the current data entry arrangement?

 

Julian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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