Ian,
You have repeatedly expressed your concerns about bird banding on
Birding-aus for several years now. In all those discussions you refer to
data that supposedly indicate bird numbers are declining due to banding, leg
flagging, cannon-netting etc. Yet when others on Birding-aus have repeatedly
requested that you identify the data or photographs that you are referring
to, or make them available, it is met with silence. How can we have a
sensible discussion on this topic if you fail to produce
scientifically-robust evidence in support of your claims? Even if the data
that you are using aren't scientifically-robust, it is still worth making
them available to Birding-aus so that a discussion of the merits of the data
and validity of the conclusions can occur.
Stephen Ambrose
Ryde NSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus On Behalf Of
Ian May
Sent: Saturday, 18 October 2014 8:31 AM
To: Peter Shute
Cc: geoff jones barra images;
Subject: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take
2
Thanks Peter. The line should read "5 attachments including two bands"
Peter Shute wrote:
>Is there any chance we could see the photo of the wader with five flags,
Ian? What species was it?
>
>Can anyone tell me what the allowable limit is?
>
>Peter Shute
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>>On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:03 pm, "Ian May" <> wrote:
>>
>>We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter
>>which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save
>>any bird.
>>
>>As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call
>>playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird
>>banding, canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like
>>comparing being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack
truck.
>>
>>Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two
>>bands. I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a
>>photograph circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper
>>chicks. It might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an
endangered
>>small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded.. How
>>can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them. More
>>likely, these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
>>
>>Many small waders populations are in decline. I remember when
>>repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.
>>Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While
>>obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of
>>these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and
>>leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too. Just a
>>coincidence? I don't think so.
>>
>>A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to
>>remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been
>>leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with
>>numbers flagged. 12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule
>>and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
>>
>>Ian May
>>St Helens Tasmania
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>g and Val Clancy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think
>>>carefully about the pros and cons of this activity. I get sad when I
>>>see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from
>>>banding when that is patently not the case. We have only scratched
>>>the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds
>>>and their movements. I am glad that people are compassionate enough
>>>to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my
>>>thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really
>>>need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at
>>>people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs
>>>that are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc.. I know that
>>>some people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and
>>>this has coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird
>>>suffers from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and
>>>humane activity. I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my
>>>banding and I am held accountable for any losses. People who do not
>>>like birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like
>>>Martin, please find out all you can about the positives before
>>>condemning the people who are giving large amounts of their own time
>>>and money to research the birds so that they can be saved. The
>>>winter movement of birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers,
>>>Striated Pardalotes and other species from Tasmania and southern
>>>Australia to the north coast of New South Wales and southern
>>>Queensland is only now being recognised. We need more banders to
>>>track these movements not less banding. Remember banders will only
>>>ever band a small percentage of the population of any species but
>>>that percentage can provide essential data that cannot be gathered by
>>>observation alone. It was banding that proved that the formerly
>>>recognised two species of Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were
>>>in fact the one species but one type was of Tasmanian origin and the
>>>other of local origin. My banding research on the Eastern Osprey,
>>>Black-necked Stork, Beach Stone-curlew and Australian Pied
>>>Oystercatcher and others has provided essential data required for the
>>>management of these threatened species. Banding is not the problem
>>>it is an important part of the solution.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Greg
>>>
>>>Dr Greg. P. Clancy
>>>Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
>>>| PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
>>>| 02 6649 3153 | 0429 601 960
>>>http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
>>>http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
>>>To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ;
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>>>Reserve take 2
>>>
>>>this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just
>>>from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these insights into
>>>banding.
>>>
>>>one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings
>>>could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,
>>>a species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
>>>one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in
>>>Australia??
>>>of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever
>>>else we believe this race may winter...
>>>I truly wonder???
>>>
>>>any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>martin cachard,
>>>cairns
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From:
>>>>To: ;
>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
>>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>>>>Reserve take 2
>>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A good article that explains quite nicely why we should continue
>>>>banding and why banding schemes are important!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Cheers, Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From:
>>>>>To:
>>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
>>>>>Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>take > 2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>leaving > the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>before > they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>to > Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>excerpt > from
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>it; " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>few > nets
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>previously,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>then went about the business of setting up camp" This quote is how
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I > came
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>view > about
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>done?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>local > bird
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>club will give you a considerable amount of information without
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>putting > the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>personally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
>>>>>vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>were
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Treatment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>couldn't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>that > if
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>could > be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the difference between life and death for those birds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically
>>>>>dropping as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous
>>>>>wader counts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>and > that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>organizations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>or > maim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>birds, all for so-called research? I for one think not!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Kindest Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Geoff Jones
>>>>>
>>>>>Barra Imaging
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---
>>>>>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Antivirus > protection is active.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.avast.com
>>>>><HR>
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