birding-aus

Re: Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re 'Jabiru'

To: Peter Shute <>, Birding-Aus Birding-Aus <>
Subject: Re: Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re 'Jabiru'
From: Paul McDonald <>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:50:15 +1100
I'm no expert by any measure, but even if there is one language there are clearly more than one accepted name (ie the multiple names for hihi in the field guides is a great example). Presumably these arise from regional differences.

However I think that we're missing the point here, it is not about finding one language that covers an entire species/genera/family distribution, as clearly that will never work in Australia. It should be noted though that even after 200+ years our current common names are not accepted universally across the country and are still in a state of flux (hence this thread!).

What we need to do is replace stupid common names, particularly focusing at the genera level (e.g. shrike-thrush), with something more appropriate. I don't think anyone is suggesting we ditch eagle, as this has relevance to other countries, phylogeny and the bird itself. If the new name happens to be an indigenous one, then logically the name would be chosen (presumably by BAs naming committee, or a group of determined, intrepid souls...) based upon the ease of pronunciation, any special cultural significance and perhaps with an eye on spreading the names across several languages. Magpie geese are a good example of how this might work, their importance to locals in northern cf. southern Australia suggests a northern name would be more appropriate. There are also not multiple species, so a single name for these guys would work, whereas it wouldn't for the shrike-thrushes. Clearly that group needs a new common name at the genus level only, ie grey <insert wonderful indigenous name here> and so forth.

There would always be shades of grey and difficult decisions, but to try and please everyone and cover every indigenous language would mean paralysis for the process and (if we're still here), having the same debate in 200 years on twitter squared or whatever is in vogue! What we need is people that feel sufficiently motivated to come up with the new names as a starting point. With that I take a large step back ;)


Happy birding,
Paul





On 24/11/2009, at 4:18 PM, Peter Shute wrote:

I'm completely ignorant of Maori culture, but a quick Googling suggests there is only one Maori language, in which case their names are an obvious choice. That's just not true here, where there are many languages, many of which are extinct anyway.

Peter Shute


-----Original Message-----
From: ] On Behalf Of Paul McDonald
Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2009 3:32 PM
To: Birding-Aus Birding-Aus
Subject: Re: Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re 'Jabiru'

One needs only look across the ditch to see how well this could and does work. I'd much rather see and talk about Kereru than NZ pigeons, or kakariki cf. parakeets. Far more interesting birds on paper. I really enjoyed the way most NZ birders adhere to the Maori names when over there and, while there are many species with several names (e.g.
Hihi), it seems to work quite well.

If nothing else it provides yet another angle for kiwi birders to sledge us, or perhaps that is just my pronunciation, or lack thereof!

Cheers,
Paul





On 24/11/2009, at 3:16 PM,  wrote:

Wombats are still badgers in parts of Tasmania!

Excellent suggestion Mark.   There will be problems with the
plethora of
Aboriginal languages (and the difficulty English speakers have
pronouncing Aboriginal words) and differences between their taxonomy
and that of Western science but and it shouldn't be too great a task.

Consider the following:

Western Kulin names (from southwestern Victoria)

Maerii - Gang Gang Cockatoo
Pirtuup - Sandpiper
Wilann - Black Cockatoo [probably Red-tailed]

Eastern Kulin names (from central Victoria)

Kruk-wor-rum - Snipe
Dulum - Black Duck
Bath-mum - Wood Duck
Uu-gup - King Parrot
Barrawarn - Australian Magpie
Tee-yung - Rose Robin
Nup-nup or Bik-mum - [Magpie] goose

Some of the words may not use the linguistically preferred spelling
but you should get an idea of what could work.

Regards

David






           Mark Carter
           <markthomascarter

@yahoo.co.uk>                                              To
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           birding-aus-
bounc                                          cc
           

Subject
                                     Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re
'Jabiru'
           24/11/09 01:55 PM









I agree with Philip Veerman's post- the confusing 'Jabiru' is just the
tip of the iceberg when it comes to Australian bird common names. I
think settlers did Australian birds a great diservice when they set
about naming them after the vaguely similar species of elsewhere but
it was understandible. What I don't understand is the way 21st century
ornithology persists with these clumsy confusing labels. A Red-capped
Robin is not a robin in much the same way than a Koala bear is not a
bear.
Mammologists
have gotten over this dodgy inheritance years ago- native cats are now almost universally renamed quolls, marsupial mice are now dunnarts (or
antichinus or psuedo antichinus or...) and porcupines are now
echidnas.
Australian birds such as shrike-thrushes, woodswallows, wrens, chats,
magpies, babblers and treecreepers are intrinsically awesome and don't
deserve to be encumbered by these clumsy, 2nd hand, confusing and
often dreadful misnomers (shrike-thrush particularly makes me cringe).
These is a
vast and rich source of authentic names in the many Aboriginal
languages of our continent- is it outragous to suggest we consider
this?

Mark Carter
Alice Springs

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:15:24 +1100
From: "Philip Veerman" <>
Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re 'Jabiru'
To: "'Tony Russell'" <>
Cc: "Birding-aus \(E-mail\)" <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Surely their proper name is the Australian Black Satin-necked non-
jabiru Stork. (joke)

Why doesn't some book author take the initiative to rename some bird
groups to simpler things, like rename the Cuckoo-shrikes as Cush e.g.
"Black-faced Cush" and likewise invent other new names, so we can
dispense with all those silly names like "Cuckoo-shrike" (not a joke).
After all, names are just labels, why not have distinctive ones that
don't give wrong impressions.

Philip Veerman
24 Castley Circuit
Kambah  ACT  2902

02 - 62314041



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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Paul G. McDonald

Department of Brain, Behaviour and Evolution
Macquarie University
Sydney, NSW 2109
Australia

Ph: +612 9850 9232 Fax: +612 9850 9231


http://galliform.bhs.mq.edu.au/~paul/
http://publicationslist.org/paul.mcdonald
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Paul G. McDonald

Department of Brain, Behaviour and Evolution
Macquarie University
Sydney, NSW 2109
Australia

Ph: +612 9850 9232 Fax: +612 9850 9231


http://galliform.bhs.mq.edu.au/~paul/
http://publicationslist.org/paul.mcdonald
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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