Dear Friends,
I am sending this to birding-aus as an email I sent to Les Christidis
bounced back. Evidently he has left his job at the Victorian Museum.
I anyoe would like to see the pdf of the tree diagram, that reveals the
affinities of T.a.javanica, let me know privately and I will send it to you.
Best wishes,
John Penhallurick
Canberra Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: John Penhallurick
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:14 PM
To: 'Les Christidis'
Subject: FW: FW: Tyto delicatula
Dear Les,
I have been pursuing Michael Wink about why his 2009 data disagreed with his
2004 paper re Tyto javanica. I received this reply, including the NJ tree
attached. I have asked him to send me the sequences so I can investigate
further, but I think this establishes a prima facie case that T.a.javanica
belows with T.a.alba, and that T.delicatula does deserve recognition as a
species. I need to leave the status of sumbaensis until I can get more data.
John Penhallurick
-----Original Message-----
From: Prof.Dr.Michael Wink
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:48 PM
To: John Penhallurick
Subject: Re: FW: Tyto delicatula
John
I have checked the cyt b data set for Tyto and have rerun what we have.
1. javanica had bad DNA and the sequence is incomplete; that is also the
reason why we have no RAG1
2. javanica rather clusters with alba than delicatula
But even this data set is a draft and needs refining;
Best wishes
Michael
John Penhallurick schrieb:
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> I do not know how the figure pasted above from your 2004 paper can be
> interpreted other than to see it as clearly implying that delicatula
> and sumbaensis are subspecies of javanica.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Prof.Dr.Michael Wink
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:59 AM
> To: John Penhallurick
> Subject: Re: FW: Tyto delicatula
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> I thought that you had received this email??
>
> This explains why our 2008 paper is different
>
> Cheers
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Prof.Dr.Michael Wink schrieb:
>
> > Dear John
>
> > I can understand that you are impatient, but to answer your query I
>
> > had to check by files. Being away quite often there were always other
>
> > things which had to be done first. Sorry.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> There has been
>
> >> consternation among serious Australian ornithologists at your
>
> >> promotion of
>
> >> T.delicatula to full species status, since they had placed delicatula
>
> >> as a
>
> >> subspecies of Tyto javanica following your 2004 paper in Raptors
>
> >> Worldwide.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > ###the 2004 paper was in line with Koenig et al 1999 ; we never made
>
> > deliculata a subspecies of javanica (please ckeck the paper!)
>
> >
>
> > Christidis & Boles (2008) were correct to treat delicatula as a
>
> > subspecies of javanica, as is sumbaensis and luluensis,
>
> > ##no that is certainly a mistake and not implicated in our 2004 paper!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > but you find on page 552
>
> > "others, such as T. a. deliculata, T.a. sumbaensis could easily raised
>
> > to species rank according to the genetic divergences found"
>
> >
>
> > The changes in Koenig & Weick 2008 were done by Claus Koenig; and I
>
> > had accepted them in the trees as they make sense; to my feeling T.
>
> > sumbaensis deserves species status as well (this was mentioned in the
>
> > text!); we did not include javanica in the 2008 paper because we had
>
> > no RAG1 sequence; but we included lulu, which was not covered in the
>
> > 2004 paper
>
> >
>
> > As we both are aware, Tyto systematics is not finished and needs more
>
> > imputs from many more samples before we can draw a conclusive scheme.
>
> > This is one of the topics for the future and where I need input from
>
> > others.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers
>
> > Michael
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I noticed that you did not include javanica in your most recent study.
>
> >> Could you possibly send me the sequences you used for your 2004 Raptors
>
> >> Worldwide study/
>
> >> Thanks,
>
> >> John Penhallurick
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> >> From: Prof.Dr.Michael Wink Sent: Monday,
>
> >> February 02, 2009 4:22 AM
>
> >> To: John Penhallurick
>
> >> Subject: Re: FW: Tyto delicatula
>
> >>
>
> >> Hi John
>
> >> soory for beeing a slow correspondent, but last week was our last
>
> >> teaching week, filled with many meetings.
>
> >> The next 3 d I am in Helsinki (part of an evaluation committee); I
>
> >> need time to check the Tyto papers and trees before answering your
>
> >> questions
>
> >>
>
> >> Cheers
>
> >> Michael
>
> >>
>
> >> John Penhallurick schrieb:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Dear Michael,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Would you please reply to my earlier messages.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Thanks,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> John
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> *From:* John Penhallurick
>
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:28 PM
>
> >>> *To:* 'Prof.Dr.Michael Wink'
>
> >>> *Subject:* Tyto delicatula
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Dear Michael,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Since you have not seen fit to respond to my questions, I am
>
> >>> forwarding an email I sent to birding-aus yestderday.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> John Penhallurick
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> *From:* John Penhallurick
>
> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:14 PM
>
> >>> *To:*
>
> >>> *Cc:* 'Les Christidis'
>
> >>> *Subject:* Tyto delicatula
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Dear Birding-aussers,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> In a chapter in the 2^nd edition of Koenig?s book on the Owls of the
>
> >>> World, Wink et al. have proposed Tyto delicatula as a good species
>
> >>> with races lulu, and sumbaensis. This is incorrect. In
>
> >>> Wink,Sauer-Gürth & Fuchs,2004,?Phylogenetic Relationships in Owls
>
> >>> based on nucleotide sequences of mitochondrial and nuclear marker
>
> >>> genes?. Pp. 517-526 in Chancellor, R.D. & B.U.Meyburg (eds), Raptor
>
> >>> Worldwide, of which I can send a copy to anyone who wants it. Found
>
> >>> that Tyto delicatula formed a sister-clade with Tyto javanica, with
>
> >>> 92% bootstrap support, and that both formed a sisten-taxon with Tyto
>
> >>> sumbaensis, that clade having 95% bootstrap support. This means that
>
> >>> Christidis & Boles (2008) were correct to treat delicatula as a
>
> >>> subspecies of javanica, as is sumbaensis and luluensis, as can be
>
> >>>
>
> >>> seen on my website: http://www.worldbirdinfo.net
>
> >>> <http://www.worldbirdinfo.net/>.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> In a review of Weick, F., 2006, Owls (Strigiformes) Illustrated and
>
> >>> Annotated Checklist. In Emu, 2007,107,pp.337-337, Stephen Debus
stated:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> To take the Australasian species, the Australian Barn Owl is
>
> >>> correctly separated as /Tyto delicatula /(including /javanica /and
>
> >>> /sumbaensis/, cf. Wink /et al. /2004), but Weick raises the form
>
> >>> /crassirostris /of the Bismarck Archipelago to species rank on
>
> >>> purely morphological grounds while pronouncing that most other forms
>
> >>> in Melanesia and Polynesia are, or probably are, inseparable from
>
> >>> /delicatula./
>
> >>>
>
> >>> / /
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I am intrigued that Debus thinks that Tyto javanica based on
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Strix javanica J.F.Gmelin,1788,Systema Naturae...editio decima
>
> >>> tertia,1,pt.1,p.295;"de Wurmb apud Lichtenberg Magaz.IV.210.
>
> >>> ("Habitat in Java".)
>
> >>>
>
> >>> should be included in Tyto delicatula, based on
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Strix delicatulus Gould,1837["1836"],Proceedings of the Zoological
>
> >>> Society of London,Pt.4,no.xlviii(June),p.140.(New South Wales.)
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Tyto javanica lulu {New Caledonia,southern Vanuatu,Loyalty
>
> >>> islands,Fiji,Tonga,Samoa,Society Islands}
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Based on Strix lulu Peale,1848,United States Exploring
>
> >>> Expedition,8,Mammalia & Ornithology,p.74. (Upolu,and other islands
>
> >>> of the Samoan Group;Ovalau,Fiji Islands)
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Is a valid subspecies, to which I have the following note:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Lulu is treated as a subspecies by Peters,1940,Checklist of Birds of
>
> >>> the World,4,p.79;M.D.Bruce,1999,Family Tytonidae(Barn-Owls) in del
>
> >>> Hoyo,Elliott & Sargatal (eds),Handbook of the Birds of the
>
> >>> World,5,p.71,merges island populations
>
> >>> everetti,kuehni,bellonae,lifuensis and lulu with widespread
>
> >>> Australasian delicatula." König,Weick & Becking,1999,Owls: A Guide
>
> >>> to the Owls of the World,p.195, treat the taxon as valid, but
>
> >>> without explanation or justification. Tamura-Nei distances based on
>
> >>> cytochrome-b and RAG-1 show that lulu is distinct from delicatula by
>
> >>> 0.251% and 0.352% and deserves recognition as a subspecies of
>
> >>> T.javanica.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I have asked Wink why he ignored Tyto javanica in his 2008 study but
>
> >>> have had no reply.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> John Penhallurick
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Prof. Dr. Michael Wink
>
>
>
> Universitaet Heidelberg; Institut fuer Pharmazie & Molekulare
> Biotechnologie (IPMB);
>
> Im Neuenheimer Feld 364
>
> D-69120 Heidelberg
>
> Tel.: +49-(0)6221-544881; Fax.: +49-(0)6221-544884;
>
> E-mail: ; Mobile: 017621201581
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Postal address:
>
> Prof. Dr. Michael Wink
>
> Heidelberg University; Institute of Pharmacy & Molecular Biotechnology
>
> Im Neuenheimer Feld 364; D-69120 Heidelberg; Germany
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Internet home pages:
>
> Institut (IPMB): http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/
>
>
>
> Steinbeis Transferzentrum (STZ) Biopharmazie & Analytik:
>
> http://www.rz.stw.de/K060/60030/427.htm
>
>
>
> Neue Buchpublikationen:
>
> http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/bookswink.html
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
--
Prof. Dr. Michael Wink
Universitaet Heidelberg; Institut fuer Pharmazie & Molekulare Biotechnologie
(IPMB);
Im Neuenheimer Feld 364
D-69120 Heidelberg
Tel.: +49-(0)6221-544881; Fax.: +49-(0)6221-544884;
E-mail: ; Mobile: 017621201581
------------------------------------------------------------------
Postal address:
Prof. Dr. Michael Wink
Heidelberg University; Institute of Pharmacy & Molecular Biotechnology
Im Neuenheimer Feld 364; D-69120 Heidelberg; Germany
------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet home pages:
Institut (IPMB): http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/
Steinbeis Transferzentrum (STZ) Biopharmazie & Analytik:
http://www.rz.stw.de/K060/60030/427.htm
Neue Buchpublikationen:
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/bookswink.html
___________________________________________________________________
==============================www.birding-aus.org
birding-aus.blogspot.com
To unsubscribe from this mailing list,
send the message:
unsubscribe
(in the body of the message, with no Subject line)
to:
=============================
|
