Help Again

To: "'Alan Gillanders'" <>
Subject: Help Again
From: "Philip Veerman" <>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 00:20:58 +1100
Hello Alan,

Sorry, I have no idea at all what you are asking or telling me (and everyone 
else). Your ID was that the bird in the photo is a female Red Bird of Paradise. 
As I don't know that level of detail about the various BOP species but I 
assumed you were likely to be correct and I was interested because I too had 
wondered what it was when I saw it, so I checked this. I looked at the Forshaw 
& Cooper book, Birds of Paradise & Bowerbirds, which is the only relevant book 
I have. On that basis, I am left with no doubts that you were right (because it 
doesn't match any others). I did not challenge your identification at all. (Why 
would you imagine I did?). I clearly wrote that I agree with you (given firstly 
that it clearly is one of the BOP group and on the basis of what I find in the 
above named reference book). 

As for why I mentioned my memories, it is simply because I believe I saw the 
same individual bird, when I was there and also wondered what species of BOP it 
was. So the issue about identifying it and that I thought the name on the 
aviary was wrong, is relevant to maybe why David in Blackheath did not know 
what it is. Simply supporting that David asked a fair question.  

As the bird is in captivity, at a place that has birds from all over the world, 
the natural distribution of the species becomes only an academic aside to the 
identity question of that one individual. 

I do not have the Pratt and Beehler book or the Frith and Beehler book, so that 
these reference sources are irrelevant to me right now. If they have more 
recent info about distribution than the Forshaw & Cooper book, well that is 
fine by me. 

As for the distinction between PNG & NG. Fine, you are right......... But that 
doesn't change the logical validity of my comment, that the bird being in NG 
(actually it was in Singapore) makes it a BOP. Jurong also has an eagle from 
USA and parrots from Australia.


-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus  On Behalf Of 
Alan Gillanders
Sent: Thursday, 8 March, 2018 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Help Again

G'day Mike and Philip,
You guys lost me some time ago. Mike did not say PNG he said New Guinea. 
Philip why are we discussing your memories of possible mistakes in the 
matching of illustrations and birds present in the Jurong Park? The 
question was about the identity of the bird in the picture. You are 
right Philip that the distribution of the bird does not make my 
identification correct but you tender no evidence to challenge my 
identification. As to the number of islands Frith and Beehler name five 
and Pratt and Beehler list two and 'some nearby islands'.

I see no indication that this bird is not a member of the Paradisaea but 
if some one can draw a feature to my attention which challenges that I 
can send the picture on to Cliff and Dawn Frith for their opinion. As 
the Red Bird of Paradise female is the only one with the pale bill, dark 
face and throat, yellow crown, neck and upper breast I am not sure what 
the discussion is about.

When it comes to references for birds of paradise I'd rather go for 
Frith and Beehler (Bill Cooper did the species plates for that too) and 
while they list fifteen presumed intergeneric and seven intrageneric 
hybrids it is possible that in captivity there may be more, by accident 
and/or design.


On 8/03/2018 7:08 PM, Philip Veerman wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> That consideration doesn't make Alan correct or not. It is surely too weird 
> looking to coincidentally be anything other than one of the BOP. Jurong Bird 
> Park has birds from all around the world. However, according to the Forshaw & 
> Cooper, Birds of Paradise & Bowerbirds, book, painting and text (and there 
> are none better than Cooper), this photo is an exact match to Red Bird of 
> Paradise, female. It doesn't actually occur in PNG but only on three islands 
> off the extreme west of Papua, Irian Jaya. I can only add that whilst male & 
> female Bird of Paradise are all / mostly very different in special feathers 
> and colours, I recall the two birds in the aviary were more different in 
> shape and size and probably beak to be the same species of BOP. Sadly not 
> that odd for zoo labels to be wrong.
> Philip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Tarburton 
> Sent: Thursday, 8 March, 2018 7:45 PM
> To: Philip Veerman
> Cc: 
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Help Again
> G’day
> If this bird is also found in New Guinea then Alan is correct it is a female 
> BOP.
> Cheers
> Mike
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 8:13 AM, Philip Veerman <> wrote:
>> I believe I recall seeing the same bird at Jurong Bird Park in September
>> 2014 and wondering what it is. The little camera I have is insufficient for
>> taking bird photos. I knew it was a female Bird of Paradise (of some kind).
>> By my memory, the label on the aviary was to the effect of another Bird of
>> Paradise species, I don't remember which. At the time I believed that the
>> aviary contained a male and female of 2 different species of Bird of
>> Paradise. I recall thinking it was maybe correct for the male. If it was not
>> the same bird, then my story is still true.
>> Philip
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Birding-Aus  On Behalf Of
>> Alan Gillanders
>> Sent: Wednesday, 7 March, 2018 6:22 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Help Again
>> David,
>> That's a Red Bird of Paradise, female.
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> On 7/03/2018 4:44 PM,  wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>> I hope you don't mind if I post a photo of the odd bird from overseas
>> which
>>> I cannot identify?  The attached photo was taken a little while ago at the
>>> Jurong Bird Park. I have no idea what it is. Any help out there?
>>> Thanks
>>> David in Blackheath

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