There is another limit to growth, societal collapse or decline. All societies
collapse or declinehistory is littered with them. There is no reason why
Western society will not collapse or decline, it is just a matter of when. The
collapse of a society generally leads to a regeneration of the environment,
e.g. The Mayans and the Khmers. Unfortunately, societal decline often leads to
mixed results, e.g. The Malian Empire and Carthage.
Fortunately, I don't think I will be around to enjoy the fireworks.
On 24/08/2012, at 3:41 PM, Dave Torr <> wrote:
> There are of course two - very different - "limits to growth". The first is
> absolute - at some point we will run out of something we need IF the
> population continues to grow and IF the average rate
> of consumption continues to grow as well. It would indeed be a brave person
> who predicts what that limit is, when we will reach it and what is the
> limiting factor.
> The second is the desirable limit and that depends on what people want out
> of life - I suspect for many readers of BirdingAus - seeing the decline in
> most bird species around the world - we may already have passed that limit?
> On 24 August 2012 15:09, Jim Smart <> wrote:
>> Hello Birding-Aus People,
>> I would like to support Alan on this discussion. It is an important topic
>> to the whole world as well as to birders specifically.
>> It involves trying to predict the future which will, of course, always be
>> controversial. In this particular instance the
>> Club of Rome 1972 report The Limits of Growth (12 million copies sold) got
>> it right by asserting that there were limits to
>> how much our economies could grow. They got it wrong in trying to predict
>> exactly which resource would actually be
>> the limiting factor. What seems now to be the limiting factor, the amount
>> of carbon oxide that can be put into the air, was not
>> considered to be important in 1972.
>> This forum has many contributors with a wealth of knowledge on
>> environmental matters. I really would not like any of them to
>> feel that they may not contribute for fear of being censored. This is a
>> real debate on real matters. Keep it going!
>> Jim Smart
>> East Maitland NSW
>> On 12/08/24 2:36 , Alan Gillanders wrote:
>>> I personally enjoy reading a divergence of opinion and interpretation and
>>> would not like to see these stopped on birding-aus. It is possible to
>>> reason passionately without loosing reason. There is a wealth of knowledge
>>> and wisdom held by the members of this forum and I enjoy being able to
>>> access it.
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