Hi all-
I wasnt going to get involved in this, and I probably wont (not that I
covered myself with probably)say anthing more than this:
Is there an objective measurement that all of us -pro and anti flagging-
could agree on that would provide use with the information we need to make
an informed judgement. Forget about what has or has not been measured,
recorded or studied for a minute. What measurement can we agree on that
would provide us with the information we all need to resolve the matter?
Scott O'Keeffe
-----Original Message-----
From:
Behalf Of Robert Inglis
Sent: 24 November 2002 09:16
To:
Subject: Objective research?
Hello Kym Bennet and other (possibly) interested persons,
Kym, on Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:54:14 +1100 (EST)
you said:
"Objective research of this primary issue would
demonstrate that leg flagging small waders is a
completely destructive process."
Are we really expected to accept the following statements of yours as
objective?
--
Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:30:04 +1100 (EST)
The following is an extract from the Bird Banders
magazine and demonstrates one example of the excessive
actions of bird banders. Nearly all of these banded
and flagged Sanderling have now disappeared, presumed
dead.
Would you like locations and dates of observations.
*(Presumedly you mean dates and locations of where the birds were
banded/flagged and not where they
disappeared, presumed dead?)
I suggest that some of you open your eyes a little
more. You will soon see that leg flagging is
responsible for the destruction of large numbers of
waders.
*(The only cause of their destruction?)
--
Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:42:21 +1100 (EST)
But we can research this all we like on the net
but this is straying from the main point which is
clear to many observers who watch waders: That leg
flagging small waders is detrimental and does
considerably more harm than good. Leg flagging may
well be catastrophic to many of them. i.e.. curlew
sandpipers and red-necked stints
*(May well be? Are you not sure now?)
I watch waders regularly and see red-necked stints and
curlew sandpipers with two plastic flags and also a
metal band attached. This is usually at the end of our
wader season after recent activities of banders are
evident. These birds probably die soon after as i have
never seen any early in the season when the waders
return.
*(Probably die? Could there be another reason for their non-return?
Presumedly these birds are alive when you do see them?)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:55 +1100 (EST)
Well steven stevenson. Could you be related to Shane
Warner, the masterbat man?
*(Who? Please explain this statement.)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:55 +1100 (EST)
In the past few years more than 650 Sanderling have
been flagged in the area described in my earlier post.
The number could be greater but i do not have the
figures.
*(Confusing..)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:55 +1100 (EST)
Even allowing for some natural regeneration, The
decline of this Sanderling population since March 1998
correlates to an almost complete kill caused by leg
flagging.
*(Regeneration? Sounds like Startrek has got into the act here.
What killed Sanderlings before leg flagging?)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:54:14 +1100 (EST)
There is plenty of evidence to show that populations
of Curlew sandpiper and Sanderling have been damaged
from leg flagging.
*(For example? You have already stated that the evidence conveniently simply
disappears.)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:54:14 +1100 (EST)
Until recently in these areas Sanderling were found in
parties up to 200 birds and occasionally formed flocks
of 500+. Probably moving between sites the total
population was less than 1100 birds,
*(How do you know the same birds are passing between sites? Do you have a
useable method of
identifying individual birds other than banding?)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:54:14 +1100 (EST)
and the population crash of Sanderling in the
area correlates to the timing and number of birds leg
flagged.
*(And nothing else? Not even habit destruction along the flight path?)
--
Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:07:42 +1100 (EST)
Alex, Peter and Andrew are demonstrating that they are
idiots!
*(Very objective! It looks like the personal abuse is not confined to one
side of the argument.)
--
Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:55 +1100 (EST)
Well steven stevenson...................
Your ability to count is exceeded only by your writing
skills.
*(Best to attack the person and not the argument; I have refrained from
pointing out your writing
errors and lack of clear construction.)
--
Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:07:42 +1100 (EST)
and this is the first time I have found a
mutilated bird caused from leg flags.
*(So your argument is based on the evidence of one bird?)
--
Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:07:42 +1100 (EST)
This is because the suffering and losses caused from
leg flagging is not easily observed. Most of the
banded birds just disappear and are not seen again,
presumed dead. Others have reported similar things on
this forum but what this recent observation proved to
me is what an atrocious death is suffered by
unfortunate birds that are leg flagged.
*(But surely the bird you observed was not dead?
How do we know that the birds we see this year are the same birds we saw
last year?
How do we know that some of last year's birds didn't find a more salubrious
place this year?)
--
There are more but why bother.
Your prime motive is obviously to "stimulate thought" on this topic; you
have done that so now
please provide truly objective information to back your argument.
Statements based on personal feelings are simply not good enough if you wish
to bring
'non-believers' around to your point of view.
Oh, and it good to know that you have 40 years of personal wader count
records for the areas you
quoted.
See posting: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:55 +1100 (EST)
I am sure you would be more than happy for other interested researchers to
peruse your records.
Cheers
Bob Inglis
Queensland
Australia
PS, I am not listed in any phone book but I am on the state and federal
roles.
I very rarely encounter other birdwatchers when I make my increasingly
infrequent birding
peregrinations but I am sure that there is a number of subscribers to
Birding-Aus who will vouch for
the objective fact that I do exist as a sentient being (sorry P.F., I
couldn't help myself there
;-).
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