There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Bay Area, California suggestions
From: weaveofkev
1b. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
From: Bernie Krause
1c. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
From: weaveofkev
1d. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
From: Dan Dugan
2a. Re: Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
From: Arnþór Helgason
2b. Re: Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
From: Bernie Krause
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Bay Area, California suggestions
Posted by: weaveofkev
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:09 am ((PDT))
Hello. I live in the Bay Area, specifically Berkeley, CA. I am trying to find
suggestions on where to go to capture active wildlife soundscapes. Living in
such a highly populated part of the world I am surround by sound pollution
which forces me to record foley type recordings and a lot of hydrophone/ocean
shore sounds... anything that will cover up the sound of a passing airplane or
a loud vehicle. As much I as like to think creatively I also would like to find
a spot in the nature for a good 8-10 hours and record a symphony of wildlife.
Are there any locals or other people who can recommend a place I can go to do
this? I'm prepared to accept the fact that I'm going have to drive 50+ miles
out of the Bay Area to successfully have a productive outing. I really could
use the help.. especially from anyone who has some specific spots to share.
I'm geared up, keys in hand. Go!
Kevin Durr
Water Tone Wonderers http://www.watertonerecords.com
http://www.watertonerecords.com
Water Tone Wonderers http://www.watertonerecords.com Where field recordists,
musicians, and artists of all types unite to weave water with their craft.
View on www.watertonerecord... http://www.watertonerecords.com
Preview by Yahoo
Sound Bite Capture https://soundcloud.com/evinurr-ieldecordings
https://soundcloud.com/evinurr-ieldecordings
Sound Bite Capture https://soundcloud.com/evinurr-ieldecordings For the most
part my audio posts range from field recordings to hydrophone recordings, and
sound design. Great currently used: 2 H2a-XLR hydrophones...
View on soundcloud.com https://soundcloud.com/evinurr-ieldecordings
Preview by Yahoo
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
Posted by: "Bernie Krause" bigchirp1
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:33 am ((PDT))
There are a number of locations within reach of the Bay Area that are
accessible and where there are sufficient intervals that are noise-free to get
good recordings. My favorite, because it�s only a 20 minute drive from where we
live, is Sugarloaf State Park, where I�ve been recording for almost 2 decades,
now. It�s a 90 minute drive from Berkeley. The 3500+ acre site managed by
Sonoma State University, Galbreath Wildlands Reserve, off of Hwy 128, south of
Yorkville, (http://www.sonoma.edu/cei/galbreath/). It�s secondary growth area
w/ no buildings and 4Xdrive access by permission where I�ve recorded for hours
during the dawn and evening choruses, and even for long stretches during the
day w/o interference by road traffic or aircraft. Ledson Marsh, a good walk
from the nearest parking, is located in the southern part of Annadel State
Park, also within easy striking distance from where we live. Limantour Beach,
at Drake�s Bay, is another pretty quiet spot, even though there�s a VOR station
guiding inbound jet aircraft into SFO. The surf noise, pretty much masks any
jet engine signals (because they�re throttled back in descent), even though
they�re at around 15,000 feet at that point. I�ve counted and recorded at
nearly a dozen locations within a 90 min. drive of our home in Glen Ellen, so
there are lots of options.
Dan Dugan has been recording in Muir Woods, in Marin County just north of the
GG Bridge. He, and many of us, have recorded in and around Yosemite. The
eastern side of the Sierras, in Mono Lake,, is one of my favorite spots,
especially in the spring, not only with the California gulls, and other
breeding avian life, but also spade foot toads, and insect larvae that one can
pick up with hydrophones in the vernal pools that occur in late March/early
April (assuming enough winter precipitation). Also, foxes and coyotes. There
are several sub-alpine riparian sites within the area, as well.
So there�s a lifetime of recording to be done in this area, Kevin.
Bernie Krause
Wild Sanctuary
POB 536
Glen Ellen, CA 95442
707-938-5388
http://www.wildsanctuary.com
SKYPE: biophony
FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
TED Global talk:
https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
On Sep 24, 2016, at 1:09 AM, [naturerecordists]
<> wrote:
>
>
> Hello. I live in the Bay Area, specifically Berkeley, CA. I am trying to find
> suggestions on where to go to capture active wildlife soundscapes. Living in
> such a highly populated part of the world I am surround by sound pollution
> which forces me to record foley type recordings and a lot of hydrophone/ocean
> shore sounds... anything that will cover up the sound of a passing airplane
> or a loud vehicle. As much I as like to think creatively I also would like to
> find a spot in the nature for a good 8-10 hours and record a symphony of
> wildlife. Are there any locals or other people who can recommend a place I
> can go to do this? I'm prepared to accept the fact that I'm going have to
> drive 50+ miles out of the Bay Area to successfully have a productive outing.
> I really could use the help.. especially from anyone who has some specific
> spots to share.
>
> I'm geared up, keys in hand. Go!
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Durr
>
> Water Tone Wonderers
>
>
> Water Tone Wonderers
> Where field recordists, musicians, and artists of all types unite to weave
> water with their craft.
> View on www.watertonerecord...
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
> Sound Bite Capture
>
>
> Sound Bite Capture
> For the most part my audio posts range from field recordings to hydrophone
> recordings, and sound design. Great currently used: 2 H2a-XLR hydrophones...
> View on soundcloud.com
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
Posted by: weaveofkev
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:19 pm ((PDT))
Thank you very much Bernie. Besides the Sierras and Muir Woods(I've been to and
love) I haven't heard of the handful of suggestions you provided. This is
exactly what I'm looking. I am currently making plans to check out Sugarloaf!
Kevin D
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Bay Area, California suggestions
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dandugan_1999
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:06 pm ((PDT))
Muir woods in the spring, like May, early, before the park opens. Start at
nautical twilight. You can record a great dawn chorus from the parking lot
(walk in) with few interruptions from planes or vehicles passing at that hour.
One hour from San Francisco!
Also El Polin Spring in the Presidio, quite quiet considering it’s in the
middle of a city.
Try hiking around the reservoir lakes in Marin County. The ridges block road
noise. Oh, and Oakwood Valley, off Tennessee Valley Road, under the power lines.
-Dan
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
Posted by: "Arnþór Helgason"
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:41 am ((PDT))
Hello, Bernie,
This recording of the waves is wonderful.
Best regards,
Arnthor Helgason
http://hljod.blog.is
�ann 23.9.2016 23:50, skrifa�i Bernie Krause
[naturerecordists]:
> As an example, here are a few samples of what the DPAs sounded like:
> 1) when mounted on my shoulders while standing by the N. Sea in the
> eastern UK on the beach at Aldeburgh:
> https://soundcloud.com/wildsanctuary/aldeburgh09dpas
>
> 2) And this is what the DPAs sounded like when attached to my mbira
> (African thumb-piano) and tested. This was recorded in 2010 when I got
> my pair:
> https://soundcloud.com/wildsanctuary/mbira-dpas
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Bernie
>
> Wild Sanctuary
> POB 536
> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
> 707-938-5388
> http://www.wildsanctuary.com
>
> SKYPE: biophony
> FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
> TED Global
> talk:
> https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
>
> On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:10 PM, Gregory O'Drobinak
> <>
> [naturerecordists] <
> <>> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Bernie:
>>
>> Sorry, but NOTHING can sound as obnoxious, ridiculous and unappealing
>> as Donald Trump!
>> The world's most mediocre and simplistic recording gear sounds way
>> better (and makes more sense).
>>
>> Stay with us & keep the faith!
>>
>> Love hearing from you all,
>> Greg
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:*"Bernie
>> <>[naturerecordists]"
>> <
>> <>>
>> *To:*Nature Recordist Group Group <
>> <>>
>> *Sent:*Thursday, September 22, 2016 5:47 PM
>> *Subject:*Re: [Nature Recordists] Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
>>
>> You make some excellent points, Daan. Every one of them noted�and
>> likely very true under many circumstances.
>>
>> We just have to remember that every mic system we use and every
>> choice we make with regard to field recording protocol ends up being
>> some kind of compromise; what we pick up at one end, we lose at the
>> other. The result I hear using MS or DMS with the soundscape
>> appearing to be larger than the sum of its parts might sound
>> compelling to me but disturbing to others�a really fair note you make
>> about the lack of �faithfulness� of the sound. We just have to
>> remember that no matter what, we�re creating an illusion with this
>> stuff. It�s a far, decontextualized and fragmented cry from the �real
>> thing� or �authentic� or �genuine� or �pure,� another point that you
>> make eloquently. This might sound like a contradiction, but I figure
>> that if one is looking for those criteria to be met, they need to buy
>> a ticket to Disneyland.
>>
>> I�m getting older, now, around 750 sunrises and sunsets short of 80
>> years on this diminishing planet. I�ve lost the top octave of my
>> hearing, replaced with a very loud and constant 11k signal as a
>> result of tinnitus, and the physical corpus no longer sustains me on
>> hikes of any distance. So my backpack and field expectations are
>> considerable lighter then they were a decade ago. I�m not complaining
>> in any way. Who can imagine enjoying a better life? But, alas, all of
>> us will come to that fork in the road if we live long enough. As a
>> result my main field package these days consists of the MKH 30/40 MS
>> combo, a very lite tripod, a SD 722. If my back hurts, I switch to
>> Chris Watson�s backup plan, an Olympus LS10 with SD MixPro, and a
>> pair of DPA 4060s, which really sound quite sweet�especially if I
>> play on a variation of Dan Dugan�s Jecklin setup by tying a string
>> around a tree the diameter approximating the distance between one�s
>> ears, and mounting the DPAs at 180� opposite. Again, a compromise,
>> but one that saves about $33kUSD if I was thinking of replacing that
>> sweet setup with a more elaborate Aachen head. And the result is
>> ____________(ok, good, great, credible, acceptable, fantastic,
>> spectacular, real, disgusting, looks and sounds a lot like Donald Trump).
>>
>> Bernie
>>
>>
>> Wild Sanctuary
>> POB 536
>> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>> 707-938-5388
>> http://www.wildsanctuary.com <http://www.wildsanctuary.com/>
>> <>
>> SKYPE: biophony
>> FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
>> TED Global talk:
>> https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
>>
>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 2:37 PM, Daan
>> <>[naturerecordists]
>> <
>> <>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Bernie,
>>>
>>> First of all I should say I have not exhausted the possibilities or
>>> capabilities of DMS - I�ve only personally owned it as a recording
>>> system for a few months, and have in the past borrowed other
>>> people�s rigs on occasion. I also haven�t had the pleasure to listen
>>> back over an extremely well calibrated system such as you describe.
>>> So my experience is limited.
>>>
>>> But I have owned and recorded with a high quality (MKH) MS system
>>> for many years, and developed a personal distaste for using it to
>>> faithfully represent (stereo) soundscapes. While I still love it for
>>> recording fx, I�ve moved to different recording approaches for
>>> stereo ambient work. The reasons are that first of all I felt I
>>> could never really trust MS for very wide images - the off-axis
>>> representation of a sound field, especially around 90 degrees from
>>> the centre, does strange things to the positioning of sound sources.
>>> Many times I have noticed that sounds that should be to the far
>>> right or left, jump to some position that is more to the centre of
>>> the image. I�ve been very careful with proper alignment of the
>>> capsules, but never been able to fully eradicate this unwanted effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> But maybe more importantly for me is that with an MS soundscape
>>> recording, I�ve always felt that my own efforts could never
>>> transcend exactly just that - it always sounded like a �recording�.
>>> There is a mild flatness to the end result that bothers me. While
>>> I�ve been able to make many recordings that I am happy with, and
>>> objectively sound good to my ears, there always was a lack of
>>> faithfulness to how I remembered how the space sounded when I was
>>> there, recording.
>>>
>>>
>>> This has become especially more clear to me now that I record with
>>> DMS and boundary/baffled omnis simultaneously and then compare the
>>> two stereo results (of course removing the rear channel from the DMS
>>> recording). While the MS can still sound very good to me, I am again
>>> confronted with this slightly unreal copy of the space I was in,
>>> while the boundary or baffle recordings come much closer.
>>>
>>>
>>> In my limited experience with auditioning surround recordings made
>>> using DMS, the same problems have persisted - a sense of a lack of
>>> truthfulness. While happy with having sound coming at me from the
>>> rear channels now as well, and certainly also feeling that the
>>> recordings I made so far are at least serviceable and sometimes
>>> �good�, it still feels like I am listening to sounds coming from a
>>> speaker array.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, my experience here goes directly against what you describe
>>> with the sense of space being larger than the sum of its parts, on a
>>> really well calibrated system. Perhaps that's the crux of my
>>> problem/limited experience with DMS so far, the playback system.
>>> Also, I've not tried converting the signal to 7.1 yet. And of course
>>> I also do realise that a recording, no matter how well done, will
>>> never quite challenge the experience of being at a place yourself.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, a lot of words here for essentially what is a very personal and
>>> a bit of a woolly observation. I do really like using my DMS rig
>>> because it�s so convenient, and my personal results so far are
>>> certainly �good�, but yes, not very exciting.
>>>
>>>
>>> I�d love to hear that installation you created in France however. I
>>> know there�s a lot more for me to learn in the world of surround sound.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Bernie
>>>
>>> <>[naturerecordists]<
>>>
>>> <>>wrote:
>>>
>>> Daan, you mentioned earlier, that you were not too impressed
>>> with double-MS. Just curious how it missed the mark for you?
>>>
>>> I found, for example, that if one has a really well-calibrated
>>> playback system, the actual illusion of space that the double-MS
>>> approach provides seems to be larger than the sum of its actual
>>> parts. That�s especially true when the audio data is converted
>>> to output formats like 7.1�similar to what we did recently in
>>> Paris at the Fondation Cartier exhibit
>>> (http://fondation.cartier.com/ #/en/art-contemporain/26/
>>> exhibitions/2638/now-on/2708/ the-exhibition/
>>>
>>> <http://fondation.cartier.com/#/en/art-contemporain/26/exhibitions/2638/now-on/2708/the-exhibition/>)
>>> The
>>> sound program, derived from MS and double-MS recordings, was
>>> installed by the folks at IRCAM and the Pompidou Centre in Paris
>>> who incorporated Meyer Sound�s new/Amie/ speakers. Might be
>>> worth checking out if you�re comparing outcomes.
>>> Of course, these results are always a matter of personal taste
>>> and trial & error.
>>>
>>> Bernie Krause
>>>
>>> Wild Sanctuary
>>> POB 536
>>> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>>> 707-938-5388
>>> http://www.wildsanctuary.com <http://www.wildsanctuary.com/>
>>> <>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Daan
>>>
>>> <>[naturerecordists]
>>> < com
>>> <>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> /I use the Rich Peet technique, imaging array in front (Jecklin
>>>> for me) and rear channels wide spaced omnis./
>>>> /
>>>> /
>>>> One thing I've always wondered about, for lack of a better
>>>> term, DIY surround setups is how you monitor in the field
>>>> whether the image you are producing is 'correct' or
>>>> satisfactory, or otherwise not going to cause phasing or other
>>>> issues. I suppose it is a case of trying out multiple setups
>>>> over a prolonged period and eventually settling for a
>>>> positioning and distance between the four mics that 'works'?
>>>>
>>>> /Saw prototype Sennheiser ambisonic mic �ambio� at IBC in
>>>> Amsterdam. It�s made with good electret capsules, at 18 dBA
>>>> self-noise doesn�t quite cut it for soundscapes. I begged for
>>>> an MKH version./
>>>> /
>>>> /
>>>> Interesting, I was aware of their upcoming Ambeo mic, but
>>>> hadn't found any info yet on the self noise. 18dBA is
>>>> disappointing. I guess that means I'll save myself splashing a
>>>> couple of grand come this November on this mic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Dan
>>>> <>[ naturerecordists]<naturerecord
>>>>
>>>> <>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Changing the thread as I led it astray.
>>>>
>>>> Daan Hendricks, you wrote,
>>>>
>>>> > I record in Double MS, though I don't find it a very
>>>> exciting sounding technique - it is of course very
>>>> practical however. I tend to do Double MS simultaneously
>>>> with stereo in various baffle/boundary arrays using omnis;
>>>> the DMS then acts as a less impressive sounding but
>>>> surround version of the stereo tracks recorded with omnis.
>>>>
>>>> I use the Rich Peet technique, imaging array in front
>>>> (Jecklin for me) and rear channels wide spaced omnis.
>>>>
>>>> > I've dabbled with Ambisonics recording using Soundfield
>>>> mics but like with DMS, I found the results underwhelming
>>>> for a variety of reasons, though again very practical and
>>>> does probably come into its own when up sampled to higher
>>>> orders; something I've not had the pleasure yet to try.
>>>>
>>>> I like having more spacing in my recordings�at least ear
>>>> spacing in the front array and more in the rear.
>>>>
>>>> > I'm still to try techniques such as double boundary
>>>> arrays for 4 channel surround, and I'm very curious and
>>>> hopeful whether the renewed interest in ambisonics thanks
>>>> to VR is going to lead to better sounding convenient
>>>> surround or spatial microphones.
>>>>
>>>> VR is making ambisonics and various surround concoctions of
>>>> hot interest in pro audio circles now. Saw prototype
>>>> Sennheiser ambisonic mic �ambio� at IBC in Amsterdam. It�s
>>>> made with good electret capsules, at 18 dBA self-noise
>>>> doesn�t quite cut it for soundscapes. I begged for an MKH
>>>> version.
>>>>
>>>> > I'm also curious of how binaural can successfully be
>>>> "converted" to 5.1 with Dolby Pro Logic 2, which I believe
>>>> is what Gordon Hempton does with his (stunning) Neumann
>>>> dummy head stereo recordings.
>>>>
>>>> I often play my quasi-binaural Jecklin or shoulder mics
>>>> recordings upmixed to 5.1 through Dolby Pro Logic 2 (music)
>>>> for pleasure. Sounds great. Important to distinguish
>>>> between movie and music modes, movie mode does steering,
>>>> music is a passive matrix.
>>>>
>>>> -Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
Posted by: "Bernie Krause" bigchirp1
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:35 am ((PDT))
Thanks, Arnthor. Remember, that was just a test.
Bernie
Wild Sanctuary
POB 536
Glen Ellen, CA 95442
707-938-5388
http://www.wildsanctuary.com
SKYPE: biophony
FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
TED Global talk:
https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
On Sep 24, 2016, at 3:41 AM, Arn��r Helgason
[naturerecordists] <> wrote:
>
>
> Hello, Bernie,
>
>
>
> This recording of the waves is wonderful.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Arnthor Helgason
>
> http://hljod.blog.is
>
>
>
>
> �ann 23.9.2016 23:50, skrifa�i Bernie Krause
> [naturerecordists]:
>> As an example, here are a few samples of what the DPAs sounded like:
>> 1) when mounted on my shoulders while standing by the N. Sea in the eastern
>> UK on the beach at
>> Aldeburgh:https://soundcloud.com/wildsanctuary/aldeburgh09dpas
>>
>> 2) And this is what the DPAs sounded like when attached to my mbira (African
>> thumb-piano) and tested. This was recorded in 2010 when I got my pair:
>> https://soundcloud.com/wildsanctuary/mbira-dpas
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>> Bernie
>>
>> Wild Sanctuary
>> POB 536
>> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>> 707-938-5388
>> http://www.wildsanctuary.com
>>
>> SKYPE: biophony
>> FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
>> TED Global talk:
>> https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
>>
>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:10 PM, Gregory O'Drobinak
>> [naturerecordists] <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bernie:
>>>
>>> Sorry, but NOTHING can sound as obnoxious, ridiculous and unappealing as
>>> Donald Trump!
>>> The world's most mediocre and simplistic recording gear sounds way better
>>> (and makes more sense).
>>>
>>> Stay with us & keep the faith!
>>>
>>> Love hearing from you all,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Bernie Krause [naturerecordists]"
>>> <>
>>> To: Nature Recordist Group Group <>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 5:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Surround recording (was Boston sounds)
>>>
>>> You make some excellent points, Daan. Every one of them noted�and likely
>>> very true under many circumstances.
>>>
>>> We just have to remember that every mic system we use and every choice we
>>> make with regard to field recording protocol ends up being some kind of
>>> compromise; what we pick up at one end, we lose at the other. The result I
>>> hear using MS or DMS with the soundscape appearing to be larger than the
>>> sum of its parts might sound compelling to me but disturbing to others�a
>>> really fair note you make about the lack of �faithfulness� of the sound. We
>>> just have to remember that no matter what, we�re creating an illusion with
>>> this stuff. It�s a far, decontextualized and fragmented cry from the �real
>>> thing� or �authentic� or �genuine� or �pure,� another point that you make
>>> eloquently. This might sound like a contradiction, but I figure that if one
>>> is looking for those criteria to be met, they need to buy a ticket to
>>> Disneyland.
>>>
>>> I�m getting older, now, around 750 sunrises and sunsets short of 80 years
>>> on this diminishing planet. I�ve lost the top octave of my hearing,
>>> replaced with a very loud and constant 11k signal as a result of tinnitus,
>>> and the physical corpus no longer sustains me on hikes of any distance. So
>>> my backpack and field expectations are considerable lighter then they were
>>> a decade ago. I�m not complaining in any way. Who can imagine enjoying a
>>> better life? But, alas, all of us will come to that fork in the road if we
>>> live long enough. As a result my main field package these days consists of
>>> the MKH 30/40 MS combo, a very lite tripod, a SD 722. If my back hurts, I
>>> switch to Chris Watson�s backup plan, an Olympus LS10 with SD MixPro, and a
>>> pair of DPA 4060s, which really sound quite sweet�especially if I play on a
>>> variation of Dan Dugan�s Jecklin setup by tying a string around a tree the
>>> diameter approximating the distance between one�s ears, and mounting the
>>> DPAs at 180� opposite. Again, a compromise, but one that saves about
>>> $33kUSD if I was thinking of replacing that sweet setup with a more
>>> elaborate Aachen head. And the result is ____________(ok, good, great,
>>> credible, acceptable, fantastic, spectacular, real, disgusting, looks and
>>> sounds a lot like Donald Trump).
>>>
>>> Bernie
>>>
>>>
>>> Wild Sanctuary
>>> POB 536
>>> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>>> 707-938-5388
>>> http://www.wildsanctuary.com
>>>
>>> SKYPE: biophony
>>> FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/BernieKrauseAuthor
>>> TED Global talk:
>>> https://www.ted.com/talks/bernie_krause_the_voice_of_the_natural_world?language=en
>>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 2:37 PM, Daan Hendriks
>>> [naturerecordists] <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bernie,
>>>>
>>>> First of all I should say I have not exhausted the possibilities or
>>>> capabilities of DMS - I�ve only personally owned it as a recording system
>>>> for a few months, and have in the past borrowed other people�s rigs on
>>>> occasion. I also haven�t had the pleasure to listen back over an extremely
>>>> well calibrated system such as you describe. So my experience is limited.
>>>>
>>>> But I have owned and recorded with a high quality (MKH) MS system for many
>>>> years, and developed a personal distaste for using it to faithfully
>>>> represent (stereo) soundscapes. While I still love it for recording fx,
>>>> I�ve moved to different recording approaches for stereo ambient work. The
>>>> reasons are that first of all I felt I could never really trust MS for
>>>> very wide images - the off-axis representation of a sound field,
>>>> especially around 90 degrees from the centre, does strange things to the
>>>> positioning of sound sources. Many times I have noticed that sounds that
>>>> should be to the far right or left, jump to some position that is more to
>>>> the centre of the image. I�ve been very careful with proper alignment of
>>>> the capsules, but never been able to fully eradicate this unwanted effect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But maybe more importantly for me is that with an MS soundscape recording,
>>>> I�ve always felt that my own efforts could never transcend exactly just
>>>> that - it always sounded like a �recording�. There is a mild flatness to
>>>> the end result that bothers me. While I�ve been able to make many
>>>> recordings that I am happy with, and objectively sound good to my ears,
>>>> there always was a lack of faithfulness to how I remembered how the space
>>>> sounded when I was there, recording.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This has become especially more clear to me now that I record with DMS and
>>>> boundary/baffled omnis simultaneously and then compare the two stereo
>>>> results (of course removing the rear channel from the DMS recording).
>>>> While the MS can still sound very good to me, I am again confronted with
>>>> this slightly unreal copy of the space I was in, while the boundary or
>>>> baffle recordings come much closer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my limited experience with auditioning surround recordings made using
>>>> DMS, the same problems have persisted - a sense of a lack of truthfulness.
>>>> While happy with having sound coming at me from the rear channels now as
>>>> well, and certainly also feeling that the recordings I made so far are at
>>>> least serviceable and sometimes �good�, it still feels like I am listening
>>>> to sounds coming from a speaker array.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, my experience here goes directly against what you describe with
>>>> the sense of space being larger than the sum of its parts, on a really
>>>> well calibrated system. Perhaps that's the crux of my problem/limited
>>>> experience with DMS so far, the playback system. Also, I've not tried
>>>> converting the signal to 7.1 yet. And of course I also do realise that a
>>>> recording, no matter how well done, will never quite challenge the
>>>> experience of being at a place yourself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, a lot of words here for essentially what is a very personal and a bit
>>>> of a woolly observation. I do really like using my DMS rig because it�s so
>>>> convenient, and my personal results so far are certainly �good�, but yes,
>>>> not very exciting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I�d love to hear that installation you created in France however. I know
>>>> there�s a lot more for me to learn in the world of surround sound.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Daan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Bernie Krause
>>>> [naturerecordists]<> wrote:
>>>> Daan, you mentioned earlier, that you were not too impressed with
>>>> double-MS. Just curious how it missed the mark for you?
>>>>
>>>> I found, for example, that if one has a really well-calibrated playback
>>>> system, the actual illusion of space that the double-MS approach provides
>>>> seems to be larger than the sum of its actual parts. That�s especially
>>>> true when the audio data is converted to output formats like 7.1�similar
>>>> to what we did recently in Paris at the Fondation Cartier exhibit
>>>> (http://fondation.cartier.com/ #/en/art-contemporain/26/
>>>> exhibitions/2638/now-on/2708/ the-exhibition/) The sound program, derived
>>>> from MS and double-MS recordings, was installed by the folks at IRCAM and
>>>> the Pompidou Centre in Paris who incorporated Meyer Sound�s new Amie
>>>> speakers. Might be worth checking out if you�re comparing outcomes.
>>>> Of course, these results are always a matter of personal taste and trial &
>>>> error.
>>>>
>>>> Bernie Krause
>>>>
>>>> Wild Sanctuary
>>>> POB 536
>>>> Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>>>> 707-938-5388
>>>> http://www.wildsanctuary.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Daan Hendriks
>>>> [naturerecordists] < com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I use the Rich Peet technique, imaging array in front (Jecklin for me)
>>>>> and rear channels wide spaced omnis.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing I've always wondered about, for lack of a better term, DIY
>>>>> surround setups is how you monitor in the field whether the image you are
>>>>> producing is 'correct' or satisfactory, or otherwise not going to cause
>>>>> phasing or other issues. I suppose it is a case of trying out multiple
>>>>> setups over a prolonged period and eventually settling for a positioning
>>>>> and distance between the four mics that 'works'?
>>>>>
>>>>> Saw prototype Sennheiser ambisonic mic �ambio� at IBC in Amsterdam. It�s
>>>>> made with good electret capsules, at 18 dBA self-noise doesn�t quite cut
>>>>> it for soundscapes. I begged for an MKH version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, I was aware of their upcoming Ambeo mic, but hadn't found
>>>>> any info yet on the self noise. 18dBA is disappointing. I guess that
>>>>> means I'll save myself splashing a couple of grand come this November on
>>>>> this mic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Dan Dugan [
>>>>> naturerecordists]<naturerecord > wrote:
>>>>> Changing the thread as I led it astray.
>>>>>
>>>>> Daan Hendricks, you wrote,
>>>>>
>>>>> > I record in Double MS, though I don't find it a very exciting sounding
>>>>> > technique - it is of course very practical however. I tend to do Double
>>>>> > MS simultaneously with stereo in various baffle/boundary arrays using
>>>>> > omnis; the DMS then acts as a less impressive sounding but surround
>>>>> > version of the stereo tracks recorded with omnis.
>>>>>
>>>>> I use the Rich Peet technique, imaging array in front (Jecklin for me)
>>>>> and rear channels wide spaced omnis.
>>>>>
>>>>> > I've dabbled with Ambisonics recording using Soundfield mics but like
>>>>> > with DMS, I found the results underwhelming for a variety of reasons,
>>>>> > though again very practical and does probably come into its own when up
>>>>> > sampled to higher orders; something I've not had the pleasure yet to
>>>>> > try.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like having more spacing in my recordings�at least ear spacing in the
>>>>> front array and more in the rear.
>>>>>
>>>>> > I'm still to try techniques such as double boundary arrays for 4
>>>>> > channel surround, and I'm very curious and hopeful whether the renewed
>>>>> > interest in ambisonics thanks to VR is going to lead to better sounding
>>>>> > convenient surround or spatial microphones.
>>>>>
>>>>> VR is making ambisonics and various surround concoctions of hot interest
>>>>> in pro audio circles now. Saw prototype Sennheiser ambisonic mic �ambio�
>>>>> at IBC in Amsterdam. It�s made with good electret capsules, at 18 dBA
>>>>> self-noise doesn�t quite cut it for soundscapes. I begged for an MKH
>>>>> version.
>>>>>
>>>>> > I'm also curious of how binaural can successfully be "converted" to 5.1
>>>>> > with Dolby Pro Logic 2, which I believe is what Gordon Hempton does
>>>>> > with his (stunning) Neumann dummy head stereo recordings.
>>>>>
>>>>> I often play my quasi-binaural Jecklin or shoulder mics recordings
>>>>> upmixed to 5.1 through Dolby Pro Logic 2 (music) for pleasure. Sounds
>>>>> great. Important to distinguish between movie and music modes, movie mode
>>>>> does steering, music is a passive matrix.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause.
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