Leaden or Satin?

["Philip Veerman" <>]

Yes all fair enough and generally good advice for both these species in our area. Particularly your para 2.

 

The additional information you now give is comparing a first reaction, to a later conclusion, after giving yourself more time to observe more detail. (A good system.) In that case either outcome has enhanced credibility. The situation can apply to many difficult bird id situations, where with more time you can include more features.

 

The analogy of circularity is more that if one starts off expecting outcome A (as experience shows as the more likely), then unless there is independent evidence of the less likely outcome B, presumably by extending the observation and getting more detail, the best option remains to go by outcome A, even if it may be wrong, because you did not find the proof either way.

 

Philip

 

 

-----Original Message-----From: Martin Butterfield [ Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013 3:07 PM
To: Philip Veerman      Cc: COG List      Subject: Re: [canberrabirds] Leaden or Satin?

There is a certain amount of circularity, in that if one starts off expecting outcome A one is likely to find it, rather than the less likely outcome B.  However what I meant by it has "stood me in good stead" is that on occasions where I have seen a dark flycatcher and am tempted to say "Satin" I try to get the best possible look it to confirm the identity and in nearly all cases it has resolved to a Leaden.  I can only think of 1 case where I ended up concluding that it was in fact a Satin (and that was with A N Other present for discussion).  

With other birds that I have recorded as Satin Flycatcher - mainly in the forests of the ranges - the identity  have been so clear that I had no doubt (but I still gave them a good looking at - both to resolve the issue and because they are very attractive birds).

Martin

On 22 December 2013 14:43, Philip Veerman <> wrote:

I agree with Martin, especially in woodland, where the Leaden is far more common, rather than forest habitat. Maybe not 99:1. Sorry but beyond that, I see that comment as circular reasoning, as in self fulfilling. If that is the reason, then how do you know it has stood me in good stead.

 

I suspect I was over generous in my text in The GBS Report by stating for the Satin Flycatcher: A couple of the records for this species more closely resemble the occurrence pattern of the Leaden Flycatcher. There is the possibility of misidentification of these two species. If they were wrong, then the real difference between the two species’ patterns would be more distinct.

 

Because the Leaden Flycatcher is by far the more common one in the suburbs, the proportion of wrong ids given as that, is far smaller (relative to that most were correctly identified as that species), so the data for them will be mostly accurate. Because the Satin Flycatcher is much less common in the suburbs, the proportion of wrong ids given as them will be greater, so the data for them may will be far more skewed by wrong ids.

 

Thanks for Geoffrey for finding the Graeme Chapman article in Wingspan reference I was thinking of..

 

Philip

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Butterfield [
Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013 1:59 PM
To: Philip Veerman
Cc: ; COG List
Subject: Re: [canberrabirds] Leaden or Satin?

I recall some years ago a very experienced member of COG commented that "if there is any doubt about whether a bird is Leaden Flycatcher or Satin Flycatcher the odds are about 99:1 that it is Leaden".   That 'rule' has stood me in good stead since then.

Martin

On 22 December 2013 13:27, Philip Veerman <> wrote:

Thanks. About my input to this, it was passing on findings or viewpoints from others (certainly not my ideas). I think I recall Graeme Chapman had a good article in Wingspan some years ago that properly explained this idea (or better than field guides and HANZAB does). Can someone find that? I'm not going to trawl through them all now.

 

I will try to save time and send a copy of this to him..........

 

The difference is I think hard to interpret when the line appears rather perpendicular. I can't tell from this. A couple photos in this case are not as good as being there but I would still favour on borderline probabilities that it is a Leaden.

 

Philip

 

--
Martin Butterfield

http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/