Re: Goshawk or Sparrowhawk??

[Julian Robinson <>]

Thanks to those who answered this post.  Here's a summary of
responses which were very educational, not so much about the actual
identity of the bird, but the take-home messages for me as a bird
photographer.  Which have been said many times before but still
...

- identifying difficult birds from a single view or a photo can be hard
or impossible.  Without call, giss/jiz (how do you spell it?), or
alternate viewpoints half the information is missing, and lighting in a
single view can add great confusion by changing colours and giving false
impressions of dark/light patches, or losing or overly emphasising some
characteristic.  (On the other hand a photo does have the advantage
that it exists in front of the puzzled observer for ever to allow
detailed comparison with guides and books, unlike an ephemeral field
sighting which can be contaminated by later thoughts and
inputs).

- birders have to make calls on identifying between similar birds but
there is often plenty of room for doubt despite how certain we can be as
individuals (something which must make the work of the rarities panel
quite difficult).  

- even obvious things like "long toes" can mean very different
things to different people and have to be used with caution. 

Below's extracts of responses, some of which were in another conversation
of which I was unaware until later.  With the exception of Philip's
informative post to the chatline, I've anonymised them to remove possible
embarrassment although no embarrassment would be called for.  I
doubt we will ever know for sure since later sightings might not be the
same bird. As far as I know all responders are knowledgeable birders,
some extremely so.

For what it's worth I'm going back to my original call, which was Goshawk
knowing this goes against opinions of some vastly better birders than
me.  I didn't really see the bird other than in the photographed
location.

------------------------------------------------
Don?t worry about being confused xxx, beyond
an obvious female Goshawk or male Sparrow-hawk, the in between zone is
much more difficult than people would have you believe especially when
trying to work from photos as apposed to seeing the bird in the
flesh.

If ever I've seen an obvious photo of a
Goshawk that is it. Tail shape, feet, eye ridge, beak
size........

I vote for immature Collared Sparrowhawk going by the stare which strikes
me as "wide eyed" rather than the "heavily
hooded"  glare of a Brown Goshawk.

I would put my bet on your bird being a Brown Goshawk. 

I?d say pretty certainly a sparrowhawk, given the very clear view of the
diagnostic toes. ... While the sparrowhawk does not have the scowling
brow, it does have a little ridge above the eye that does not overbear it
... The tail is in moult so not that much help. 

For what its worth, and based on
things like the G Dabb ID lessons, I reckon it?s a Goshawk.  It has
a bit of a cranky look, and the middle toe really isn?t very long
compared to some of the winkle-pickers I have seen in photos of
Sparrowhawks.

I was looking at your hawk shots from Callum
Brae, and based on the long middle toes and skinny shanks I think they
are Collared Sparrowhawks. 

I reckon that the ... photo... show a
male Brown Goshawk. I'd argue that the middle toe is too short and thick
for Collared Sparrowhawk, that the brow-ridge is typical for Brown
Goshawk and too heavy for a sparrowhawk, that the tarsus is a bit too
stout for a Collared Sparrowhawk, and that the tail shape (funny though
it is) can only fit Brown Gos. 
The tail of the... bird could be
moulting, and I suspect that t2 and t3 are growing, not full length; t1
seems to be retained juvenile, t6 is probably first basic. (It was)
reported a few years ago that in Brown Gos, the tail of juvs is slighlty
longer than that of adults. I looked for this effect in Collared
Sparrowhawk and couldn't find it. Maybe I should look again - if it's
only Brown Gos in which juv tail is longer than ad tail, then there might
be a new ID feature to work with on moulting birds.

I must admit when I saw ...the photos I
thought, sparrowhawk...



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