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Birding-Aus Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24

To: "" <>
Subject: Birding-Aus Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
From: Michael Hunter <>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 08:33:21 +1100
Aaaah ,   Transparency is a wonderful thing.

We need more of it, like who, or what agency, makes the final decision on the 
Rio Development?

            Michael Hunter



Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Dec 2018, at 4:00 am,  wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. FW: Red Goshawks caught and netted during nesting season
>      (Stephen Ambrose)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 09:14:12 +1100
> From: "Stephen Ambrose" <>
> To: <>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] FW: Red Goshawks caught and netted during
>    nesting season
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I?m just forwarding this email response from Stephen Debus, on behalf of 
> Shirley Cook, who had trouble sending it through to Birding-aus this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Ambrose
> 
> Ryde NSW
> 
> 
> 
> From: shirleycook <> 
> Sent: 23 December 2018 6:04 AM
> To: 'Stephen Ambrose' <>
> Subject: RE: [Birding-Aus] Red Goshawks caught and netted during nesting 
> season
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> Copied below is Steve Debus; response ? for some reason it bounced when I 
> posted it to Birding-Aus.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Shirley,
> 
> 
> 
> This case is a good example of trolls and detractors on blogs and chatlines 
> going off half-cocked without knowing the full facts.  For starters, the 
> original RAOU Red Goshawk project in the ?80s got some invaluable data on a 
> pair of Red Goshawks that were caught and radio-tracked (female in the 
> breeding season, 2 young fledged) and they bred in the following season after 
> they had shed their transmitters.
> 
> 
> 
> The Weipa study is funded by Rio Tinto but the Red Goshawk work is conducted 
> by expert raptor ecologists (and consultant ecologists as trained 
> assistants), notably Dr Richard Seaton who was employed by Qld DEHP and now 
> by AWC.  He has extensive experience radio-tracking raptors.  The project is 
> overseen by the Red Goshawk Recovery Team, and the Team is privy to 
> preliminary key data on female home range and juvenile dispersal.  
> Transmitters can fail or fall off, so ?disappearance? could be a signal issue 
> rather than goshawk death.  Raptors are quite robust, and we only know from 
> satellite transmitters e.g. that kestrel-sized falcons can make the return 
> annual migration journey between Asia and Madagascar over 4 years.  
> Responsibility for the Weipa study presumably shifted from the Qld government 
> to consultants for Rio Tinto with Richard?s move from QDEHP to AWC.  The 
> Recovery Team is meeting in January, so we will undoubtedly be discussing the 
> issues raised as well as data.  T
> he data will be published in due course, and the study arose from Rio Tinto?s 
> obligation to assess and minimise impact on a federally listed species.  That 
> can only be achieved with the necessary ecological information.
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to post the above.  I hope all?s well, and best wishes for 
> Christmas and 2019,
> 
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Birding-Aus  On Behalf Of 
> Stephen Ambrose
> Sent: Saturday, 22 December 2018 3:59 PM
> To: 'Greg Roberts'
> Cc: 'birding-aus'
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Red Goshawks caught and netted during nesting 
> season
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is unethical for to us arrive at conclusions about the WA Night 
> Parrot project when the researchers and members of the associated animal 
> ethics committee are not directly involved in the discussion to give their 
> side of the story.  I actually don?t know much about what happened and I 
> think most people who have a firm opinion on the issue are relying on 2nd or 
> 3rd-hand information or opinions.  If that is the case, how can anyone 
> comment with authority and impartiality about the situation?  Just my five 
> cents worth ?
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Ambrose
> 
> Ryde NSW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Greg Roberts < 
> <> > 
> Sent: 22 December 2018 10:26 AM
> To: Stephen Ambrose < <> >
> Cc: birding-aus < 
> <> >
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Red Goshawks caught and netted during nesting 
> season
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input Stephen.
> 
> 
> 
> I have friends who have been members and even chaired animal ethics 
> committees. I know there are good people out there doing good work.
> 
> 
> 
> However , if we look at the WA Night Parrot example , how could that netting 
> have been approved when no attempt was made to ascertain how many birds were 
> there ? By some accounts there was just the single pair, and they are now 
> gone. And what was the outcome when the ethics committee was informed of this 
> unfortunate result?
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of the Red Goshawk, it is difficult to make a more firm 
> assessment when both the Queensland Environment Department and Rio Tinto 
> refuse to answer questions.
> 
> 
> 
> Greg Roberts 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> On 22 Dec 2018, at 8:50 am, Stephen Ambrose < 
> <> > wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should have first-hand experience with animal ethics committees, 
> either as a member of one or as a proponent of an animal research project. 
> You would then realise the detailed justification that is required to be 
> granted a permit, the level of thought required by the researcher regarding 
> animal welfare, and the extent of reporting back to the committee on animal 
> welfare outcomes of the research.  If you did that then you would realise 
> that your assertion of animal ethics approvals are freely-granted is 
> incorrect.  Animal ethics committees must ensure that all animal research 
> projects conform with the Australian Code for the Care and Use of Animals for 
> Scientific Purposes 
> https://nhmrc.gov.au/about-us/publications/australian-code-care-and-use-animals-scientific-purposes
>  . Note that animal ethics committees have at least one vet and a member of 
> the public who has experience and expertise in animal welfare as members 
> https://www.animalethics.org.au/animal-ethics-comm
> ittees , so there is real community input into this process.
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, and those of many other researchers, ethics committees 
> respond to an initial application for animal ethics approval with a request 
> for more information.  This usually means that either not enough detail about 
> the proposed research project was provided in the initial application, the 
> committee has some questions that need answering, the committee has some 
> genuine concerns about the project that need to be addressed by the 
> researcher, or all or a combination of these things. Then there is the 
> requirement of reporting back to the committee, either at regular intervals 
> (if a long-term research project) or at the end of the project (if the 
> project is short-term) on animal welfare issues.  Researchers often grumble 
> at the amount of paperwork, research justification and reporting that is 
> involved, but animal ethics committees do really make a difference and are 
> far from rubber-stamping entities.
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Ambrose
> 
> Ryde NSW
> 
> 
> 
> From: Birding-Aus < 
> <> > On Behalf Of Greg Roberts
> Sent: 19 December 2018 4:17 PM
> To: birding-aus < 
> <> >
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Red Goshawks caught and netted during nesting season
> 
> 
> 
> A moment to respond to some comments about this thread relating to this story:
> 
> 
> 
> http://sunshinecoastbirds.blogspot.com/2018/12/endangered-red-goshawks-netted-and.html
> 
> 
> 
> Angus says I am wrong to claim that the Queensland Government has handed over 
> responsibility for the project to Rio Tinto. He might wish to explain this 
> Queensland Environment and Science Department comment to me: "...this project 
> is funded and led by Rio Tinto. All questions can be directed to them."
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the results of research need not be immediately available, but basic 
> information should reasonably be expected to be made public. For instance, 
> how many birds have been caught or will be caught, or have died or are 
> missing?  The Department of Environment and Science won't say. Rio Tinto 
> won't say. 
> 
> 
> 
> As for animal ethics approval, it seems this is freely granted. It was given, 
> for instance, for the netting and tagging of a Night Parrot in Western 
> Australia last year; that critically endangered bird and its mate promptly 
> disappeared.  
> 
> 
> 
> David says there are more important issues to be concerned about. Indeed. 
> Like the fact that Rio Tinto is strip-mining tens of thousands of hectares of 
> potential Red Goshawk habitat on Cape York.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg Roberts
> 
>  <> 
> 
> Blog: http://sunshinecoastbirds.blogspot.com.au/
> 
> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gregbirdo
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregrobertsqld
> 
> Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sunshinecoastbirds/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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