Isn't it possible to be Pro-Young and also question the validity of the
pictures or to question the actions of John? Or does one have to act woth total
faith?
Hell - I don't always agree with my wife...
Cheers and have a happy day all.
Ken Cross
------------------------------------------
From: Geoff Price <>
To: ; ;
Subject: Night Parrot debate
Well said Stephen. I for one have been wondering why some cannot
differentiate between personal attacks and scientific debate. Certainly,
there have been more personal attacks from the pro-Young camp than those
who question the scientific validity of the pictures. As you say - we
are entitled to question, especially given the man's history. As I see
it, many respected scientists are questioning certain behavioural
aspects of the finder, such as suppressing the call and altering images.
This is scientific debate, NOT casting aspersions on the validity of the
find. So why are so many getting so heated up when anyone dares question
this, and the assumption that he alone knows what is good for this species?
On 15/10/2013 12:29 PM, Stephen Murray wrote:
> Lloyd. Thank you for sharing this information.
>
> However, I have to say that say I am completely taken aback by the way
> people have been demonised for daring to ask a few questions about the
> photos. These are the first pictures we have ever been shown of a live
> Night Parrot. Did Mr Young really think people were not going to look
> closely at the photograph? People just wanted to know was why was it
> altered, how much of it was altered, and did the publishers know it was
> altered. For that they are told to 'shut up', 'get a life' or worse,
> accused of slander. The religious fervour building up around this event is
> starting to cloud people's judgement. All the information about what a good
> bloke John is, and how much he has sacrificed to get to this point, is
> totally irrelevant to the discussion about the photo.
>
> I particularly don't like the implication that because the photos were only
> for public consumption it doesn't really matter that they were altered. You
> have to remember that, until this discovery makes its way into a scientific
> journal, members of the public have very little to go on. Just a few
> altered photos and what we have been told.
>
> Steve Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> On Behalf Of Lloyd Nielsen
> Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 6:39 PM
> To:
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Night Parrot debate
>
> Someone asked for the truth in this matter so please read below. I should
> add that I have known John for about 30 years, have worked with him on many
> occasions and regard him as a close friend.
>
> John finally got the photos of the Night Parrot with the help of a birding
> friend who has accompanied him on many of the trips (and who also saw the
> parrot during that time). After the night of photography and some sleep was
> had, they packed up and headed for home - a 15 hour drive. As soon as John
> got within mobile range, he phoned me to say "We got it!" He was so excited
> that he could hardly get the words out. They arrived back in Cairns late
> that night. Next morning around 9.00 am John arrived up here at my place and
> we sat at my kitchen table and spent a couple of hours going through about
> 50 or so of the best photos as well as the video. I was the first to see
> them. I had already heard much of the sound that John had got on previous
> visits but we went through some of that again. Over previous years, I spent
> time with him out at some of the sites where he has been looking for the
> parrot, including the one where he finally got the photos. I have not been
> fortunate enough to see the bird myself but know the exact site where he
> photographed it - in fact the very spinifex bush the bird disappeared under!
>
> As far as John altering the photo digitally is concerned, all he did was to
> take a small spinifex twig off the birds back which was spoiling the photo.
> I have just spoken to him again and he assures me adamantly that before he
> sent the photo that is all he did (not that I needed that assurance). The
> photo (a jpg!) was not for scientific consumption but for PUBLIC
> consumption! What is the drama over that? Some people seem to have problems
> differentiating between the two - just read the debate on Bird Forum. It is
> something which happens a million times a day in the publishing world. There
> are another hundred plus original Raw files which will be available for
> publication at a later date with a scientific paper if needed.
>
> I really can't believe some of the comments and doubting from some people
> which has made its way onto Birding-aus!! John Young is one of the most
> remarkable and talented field ornithologists Australia has ever seen and yet
> there are people out there (mostly those who have never met
> him) who still try to put him down at every opportunity.
>
> And as far as the "debate" on the Bird Forum website is concerned, after
> reading a few of those postings, I quickly hit the delete button - I have
> better things to do than to waste time reading discussion such as that which
> at times denigrates Australian birding and birders, with some bordering on
> defamation. Why don't these people take some notice of the Aussies? A few
> noted Australian ornithologists made an attempt to convince them that the
> sighting and photographs were genuine but that seemed to be ignored but a
> number of contributors.
>
> Finally, a message to the doubters and knockers - for goodness sake, go take
> a cold shower and give the man a break!! Recognise his ability, what he has
> achieved and what he is doing. Allow him to make more data available in his
> own good time. He is already working on the parrot and its welfare
> (voluntarily with no financial remuneration) with others including some from
> the scientific community. The object of this is to determine the status of
> the bird etc etc, trying to locate it in other areas, to determine the best
> ways to protect the bird, AND ways in which others might see it without
> endangering the species. You are not helping either the cause (especially
> when and if funds need to be raised at some time), the future of the Night
> Parrot or the chance for others to see it!
>
> And for those people asking (almost demanding) him to divulge all that he
> has gained, discovered and learned so far - does one immediately write a
> paper at first encounter with a species? He has already conducted a public
> forum at his own expense for the benefit of birders.
> Just remember this - John derives a living from consultancy etc. in the
> natural history field (he does not have a highly paid government or other
> job) and the quest for the Night Parrot has already cost him more than 6
> figures of his own money as well as thousands of hours in the field for
> which he has received very little remuneration to date. Are these people
> going to contribute to some form of remuneration. Give the man a break!
>
> Lloyd Nielsen,
>
> Mt Molloy, Nth Qld
>
> www.birdingaustralia.com.au
>
>
>
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