John,
I don't think the IOC have split the rainforest subspecies of boobook.
Confusingly, the IOC list calls Rufous Owl Ninox rufa "Rufous Boobook".
Incidently, I think there are two rainforest forms of Southern Boobook in the
rainforests of NQ. N. b. lurida is the widely known dark form in the upland
rainforests of the wet tropics. There is a paler rufous barred form like a mini
Rufous Owl in the lowland rainforests and forest edges that I saw between
Cardwell and Innisfail on a few occassions between 10 and 15 years ago. It
doesn't seem to have a name, it is very different from either lurida (very dark
with a spotted breast) or the dry vegetation form in NQ, ocellata (very brown
with a streaked breast). I don't know of any reference to it in the
literature, and perhaps there are no specimens.
From: John Leonard <>
To: Birding-aus <>
Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2011 6:07 PM
Subject: The Lesser Sooty Owl and Sooty Owl?
I note that the recent IOC version 2.8 list splits the rufous form of
the Boobook found in north Qld from the non-rainforest form.
:-)
John Leonard
On 4 May 2011 13:00, Dave Torr <> wrote:
> Indeed - what is a species? To quote Darwin (who may have known a thing or
> two?)
> "No one definition has satisfied all naturalists; yet every naturalist knows
> vaguely what he means when he speaks of a species. Generally the term
> includes the unknown element of a distinct act of creation"
>
> The Guardian reckons there are around 26 different species concepts -
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/punctuated-equilibrium/2010/oct/20/3!
>
> I guess we are trying to categorise things which may not always fit into the
> neat boxes that scientists desire - indeed as evolution progresses there is
> rarely a clear dividing line between the end of one species and the start of
> another.
>
> On 4 May 2011 12:27, Tim Dolby <> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> To determine taxonomical status Christidis and Bole use mainly
>> morphological and molecular characters, rather than things like topography,
>> food, hunting, behaviour, breeding, and vocalisations. According to the
>> research carried out by C&B the Sooty and Lesser Sooty are less
>> morphologically different that many birds considered the same species. In
>> essence the specific status is substantiated by DNA evidence with nucleotide
>> substitution in DNA-sequencing variable at subspecific level from zero to
>> 1%. Greater differences suggest species status. A good example of this is
>> found in Southern Boobook, with birds in Victoria being more morphologically
>> divergent from birds in northern NSW than Sooty Owl are from Lesser Sooty
>> Owl. In essence it depends on where you draw the line.
>>
>> Quite clearly subspecies complex are poorly understood and further detailed
>> work is required.
>>
>> Personally I'd hoped that genetics would give us some clear answers when
>> determining species status, however quite obviously this is not the case -
>> and from reading the comments here - it is still a matter of interpretation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Tim Dolby
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [
>> on behalf of Tony Russel [
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 12:21 PM
>> To: 'Chris Sanderson'
>> Cc: 'birding-aus threads';
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Lesser Sooty Owl and Sooty Owl?
>>
>> Hallo Chris, I'm not sure I deserved such a condemning response - I
>> certainly wasn't complaining about the published taxonomy - merely that I
>> choose not to go along with all of it and have in fact moved on without
>> some
>> of it.
>>
>> And yes, I do keep the Crimson Rosella Platycercus elegans separate from
>> the
>> subspecies nigrescens, flaveolus, subadelaidae, fleurieuensis, and
>> melanoptera (on KI, and recently also on the tip of Cape Jervis where I
>> have
>> a property).
>>
>> I do choose not to adhere slavishly to what the professionals dictate .
>> That's not to say they are wrong, just that I choose otherwise. I think
>> it's still a free world ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Chris Sanderson
>> Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2011 11:18 AM
>> To: Tony Russel
>> Cc: martin cachard; ; birding-aus threads
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Lesser Sooty Owl and Sooty Owl?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you all have Adelaide and Yellow Rosellas on your list as separate
>> species too? They are pretty distinct from the Crimson Rosellas we have
>> locally but are the same species taxonomically also (for now at least, I
>> think there's a paper in the works on this). Personally I'll leave
>> taxonomy
>> to the professionals. If you have complaints, please publish a peer
>> reviewed journal article to rectify the taxonomic disparity rather than
>> complaining about others who have done good science. Not saying you are
>> wrong about the Sooty Owl complex, but C&B is based on the best available
>> science at the time of writing, if you want it overturned, fix the science,
>> otherwise accept the umpire's decision and move on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Tony Russel <>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I keep the Sooty and the Lesser Sooty Owls as two separate species. Anyone
>> who has seen them knows very well how different they are.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> On Behalf Of martin
>> cachard
>> Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2011 10:10 AM
>> To: ; birding-aus threads
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Lesser Sooty Owl and Sooty Owl?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Patrick
>>
>> When you come up to FNQ & hopefully observe the local Lesser Sooty Owl, you
>> can't 'officially' count it as a new species tick (unless of course, you
>> are yet to see a Sooty Owl further south!!).
>>
>> BUT, this 'lumping' by C&B 2008 is strongly disputed by many, including
>> many
>> of us up here more familiar with this bird in the field than some
>> taxonomists.
>>
>> So Patrick, come up here, find & enjoy the bird, record that you've
>> observed it, & in time, I'm sure that you will find that this local bird
>> will be split again from the Sooty Owl & given the full species recognition
>> it deserves. Some of us up here are currently working on this to be
>> rectified....but there is much work still to be done on this
>> one....(amongst
>> some other lumps/splits of FNQ birds).
>>
>> As for further answers to your questions about what is tickable (or not)
>> due
>> to a species' status, I'm sure someone else more qualified than me can help
>> to explain this to you.
>>
>> But for my own records list, I just make sure what birds I observe are
>> recorded to sub-species level - changes in the taxonomy of our birds, &
>> accordingly our official list (whatever the source of it), will continue to
>> occur. For now, I keep my records as per the current C&B species list as it
>> is defined in 2008 because this is the current official species list,
>> like/agree with it or not. I can update my full species list as the changes
>> to the official list occur since I have a record of the sub-species I have
>> seen & where. I think you will find that most Aust birders do the same
>> thing
>> or similar.
>>
>> Someone else I'm certain, will add a better & more scientific explanation
>> about your other questions - I, for now, just wanted to put my gripe out
>> there about the poor lumping of Lesser Sooty Owl on behalf of several other
>> dismayed local FNQ birders !!
>>
>> Obviously Patrick, as it stands now I haven't got a Lesser Sooty Owl on my
>> species list - just 2 sub-species/races of Sooty Owl....
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin Cachard
>> Cairns
>> 0428 782 808
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 09:11:11 +1000
>> > From:
>> > To:
>> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] The Lesser Sooty Owl and Sooty Owl?
>> >
>> > Hi All,
>> > After reading Sean Dooley's reply to Paul, I have been trying to figure
>> out
>> > what happened with the Christidis and Boles list with regards to the
>> Lesser
>> > Sooty Owl. In the guide books they are a different size and live in
>> > different parts of the country, so why is the Lesser Sooty Owl no longer
>> > counted as a separate species? Does this mean that if I am lucky enough
>> to
>> > see the owl formally known as the Lesser Sooty Owl on the Atherton
>> > Tableland that I will be seeing the Sooty Owl? Can someone please explain
>> > this to me or at least if it makes no sense to others then, what is the
>> > official explanation? And I have been trying to figure out the
>> conspecific
>> > term. C & D still have some species as separate (tickable) but as
>> > conspecific. Are they saying that as with the Western Wattlebird and
>> Little
>> > Wattlebird that at some stage millions of years ago they were one
>> species?
>> > Thanks,
>> > Patrick Scully
>> > ===============================
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--
John Leonard
Canberra
Australia
www.jleonard.net
I want to be with the 99,999 other things.
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