So you have the situation which applies here - keeping domestic lists
according to one taxonomy and international ones according to a different
one. Gets very confusing!
On 4 January 2011 14:31, <> wrote:
> Hi again.
>
> Just wanted to clarify how things work in the U.S.
>
> A U.S. birder keeping lists under ABA rules has to keep a world list in
> accordance with three authorities:
>
> 1. The ABA checklist for birds within the ABA area (U.S. (except Hawaii),
> Canada and some offshore bits).
>
> 2. The American Ornithologists Union checklist for birds in its area but
> outside the ABA.
>
> 3. The Clements list for birds outside the AOU area.
>
> In practice, the ABA follows the AOU on matters of taxonomy, and mostly
> makes decisions on whether an ABA record is acceptable or whether an exotic
> population has become established.
>
> Most of the griping seems to be about Clements, who tends to be rather
> conservative.
>
> Each of these publications is updated on a fairly regular basis.
>
> Eric Jeffrey
>
> In a message dated 1/3/2011 10:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with what is being said in this discussion.
>
> C & B have, I believe, publicly stated that they are not going to publish a
> new edition of their book. More than a new checklist, what I think is needed
> now is for some organisation to accept responsibility for maintaing the
> Australian checklist, post C & B - or adopting a new one.
>
> Perhaps BOCA and BA, as the "recognised organisations" in Australian
> birding would accept this role?
>
> I would add that both BOCA and BA are currently participating in the
> Birdlife International "Important Bird Area" project. For the purposes of
> the project the Birdlife International checklist is being used, not
> Systematics and Taxonomy of Australian Birds, Christidis & Boles
> (2008). Perhaps BA and BOCA could adopt the Birdlife International checklist
> for all their projects, not just the IBA project?
>
> cheers
>
> Jenny
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dave Torr <> wrote:
>
>> That is correct - the "official" list (C&B) was not published by a birding
>> organisation and the interval between issues is rather lengthy.
>>
>> I personally do not think there is a role for a local committee to decide
>> on
>> the merits of splits/lumps - as this soon leads to the local list being
>> mis-aligned with International lists. Currently we have a committee (BARC)
>> that rules on new records. My feeling is that Aussie birders should agree
>> (probably via the major organisations) to accept one international list
>> and
>> go with that for better or worse! We can then spend a long time arguing
>> which list to accept. (If the proposed merger happens between the two
>> major
>> organisations - BA and BOCA - the combined organisation will become
>> BirdLife
>> Australia. BirdLife International of course published a checklist, so
>> whether such an organisation would be obliged to use that list is a matter
>> for yet more debate!)
>>
>> On 4 January 2011 13:24, <> wrote:
>>
>> > Does Australia really not have a checklist committee? Here in the
>> U.S.,
>> > the American Birding Association provides the "official" checklist for
>> the
>> > U.S., although to large extent they follow the broader AOU. Of course
>> that
>> > does not stop people from disagreeing and keeping their own lists
>> > according to whatever criteria they prefer (so long as they do not
>> submit
>> > them to
>> > the ABA). The whole concept of the Committee is to pass judgment on
>> > things
>> > such as proposed lumps/splits, whether proposed new records are
>> > acceptable,
>> > etc.
>> >
>> > Eric Jeffrey
>> > Falls Church, VA
>> > USA
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 1/3/2011 9:18:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> > writes:
>> >
>> > Precisely, well said Jeff. I am not advocating a scientific discussion
>> by
>> > whoever would be on the committee so much as an editing of data for the
>> > sake of differentiating various species in a universally accepted way.
>> > That
>> > way everybody is reading from the same page.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> > David Kowalick
>> >
>> >
>> > G'day Philip,
>> >
>> > "Allow me to express what I hope is obvious", you haven't quite
>> explained
>> > yourself here Philip or I suspect you don't really understand the
>> reasons
>> > for a committee as outlined by David. Evolution has got absolutely
>> nothing
>> > to do with this, David wasn't suggesting a committee that would change
>> the
>> > Australian list to keep pace with the evolution of new species as they
>> > evolve!!!
>> > What would be your process that would deliver on "Suggesting a
>> consistent
>> > list would be helpful", it's our evolving understanding of how many
>> > species
>> > there are through published research that is driving this issue and
>> > leading
>> > to an ongoing need to reassess the list.
>> > I am all for David's suggestion, it's way overdue.
>> >
>> > Cheers Jeff.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:
>> > On Behalf Of Philip Veerman
>> > Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2011 12:18 PM
>> > To: 'David Kowalick';
>> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] World Checklists, Grass wrens, Official list of
>> Oz
>> > birds etc...
>> >
>> > I don't quite understand the concern. Allow me to express what I hope
>> is
>> > obvious. Evolution is an ongoing process, which means it is happening
>> > now. At any one time, most species are and should be distinct but some
>> > small number of species will be in various stages of separation.
>> > Suggesting a consistent list is helpful but suggesting that there
>> should
>> > always be a correct answer is flawed. Then impose our various ways
>> > (differences of opinions etc) on what constitutes enough distinction,
>> of
>> > interpreting these dividing lines and of course there would be
>> troubles.
>> > I would hate the idea of a different list every year and wouldn't be
>> too
>> > comfortable about the costs of doing the committee David suggests,
>> > relative to the expenditure of those funds on more practical things. Of
>> > course knowing about species diversity is important to doing the
>> > conservation etc.
>> >
>> > Philip
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:
>> > On Behalf Of David Kowalick
>> > Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2011 11:11 AM
>> > To:
>> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] World Checklists, Grass wrens,Official list of
>> Oz
>> > birds etc...
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> > This is all very confusing. What constitutes an accepted split? Where
>> > does the Myall subspecies of the Thick-belled Grasswren fall? Western
>> or
>> >
>> > what? And what of the the C&B list? What do we take as the official
>> > list? The world list or C&B? These days I always try to tick every
>> > sub-species just in case it ends up being split later on. It seems
>> > splitting very much back in fashion but it seems impossible to keep
>> > abreast of all the developments. Surely there could be a committee set
>> > up by Birds Australia to review the official Australian list on an
>> > annual basis that takes into account all the latest developments? I
>> have
>> >
>> > always lived and died by C&B but recently that seems to no longer be
>> the
>> >
>> > case.In the meantime I will try not to drown in the data.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> > David Kowalick
>> > ===============================
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