Hello Jeff,
Yes you are correct that maybe I needed to be more clear........ I was
certainly not seeing it as changing the status of species as they
evolve. That process is too slow and not within our time scale. I see
David's suggestion as changing the nomenclature of a range of forms as
our understanding of these forms improves. But this is not an easy or
cheap process and subject to ongoing change and differences of opinion.
Maybe our conservation and research dollar is better spent on
recognising the diversity and trying to preserve it, rather than
worrying too much about whether we call them species, subspecies or
whatever (for the purpose of tick lists).
I was referring to the biology of the forms as they are now, more than
what we call them and where we draw the lines. Evolution has everything
to do with this, as it is the process that drives the speciation. Some
species are now at the point of diverging but have not completed the
process yet (such as eastern and western forms of various species that
have become variously isolated by a drying continent as Australia moves
northwards). However we do not and can not be precise about where on the
evolutionary pathway every such species is, at this point in
evolutionary time. As the process is happening now, differentiation
noted now in some of these difficult cases of very similar forms is
probably midway through a time span of many millennia or millions of
years. Some taxa will not neatly fit on one side or another of whatever
constitutes speciation.
Thus some of these close ones will be arbitrary in our taxonomic
opinions.
Philip
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Davies
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2011 1:01 PM
To: 'Philip Veerman'; 'David Kowalick';
Subject: World Checklists, Grass wrens, Official list
of Oz birds etc...
G'day Philip,
"Allow me to express what I hope is obvious", you haven't quite
explained yourself here Philip or I suspect you don't really understand
the reasons for a committee as outlined by David. Evolution has got
absolutely nothing to do with this, David wasn't suggesting a committee
that would change the Australian list to keep pace with the evolution of
new species as they evolve!!! What would be your process that would
deliver on "Suggesting a consistent list would be helpful", it's our
evolving understanding of how many species there are through published
research that is driving this issue and leading to an ongoing need to
reassess the list. I am all for David's suggestion, it's way overdue.
Cheers Jeff.
-----Original Message-----
From:
On Behalf Of Philip Veerman
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2011 12:18 PM
To: 'David Kowalick';
Subject: World Checklists, Grass wrens, Official list of
Oz birds etc...
I don't quite understand the concern. Allow me to express what I hope is
obvious. Evolution is an ongoing process, which means it is happening
now. At any one time, most species are and should be distinct but some
small number of species will be in various stages of separation.
Suggesting a consistent list is helpful but suggesting that there should
always be a correct answer is flawed. Then impose our various ways
(differences of opinions etc) on what constitutes enough distinction, of
interpreting these dividing lines and of course there would be troubles.
I would hate the idea of a different list every year and wouldn't be too
comfortable about the costs of doing the committee David suggests,
relative to the expenditure of those funds on more practical things. Of
course knowing about species diversity is important to doing the
conservation etc.
Philip
-----Original Message-----
From:
On Behalf Of David Kowalick
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2011 11:11 AM
To:
Subject: World Checklists, Grass wrens,Official list of Oz
birds etc...
Hi everyone,
This is all very confusing. What constitutes an accepted split? Where
does the Myall subspecies of the Thick-belled Grasswren fall? Western or
what? And what of the the C&B list? What do we take as the official
list? The world list or C&B? These days I always try to tick every
sub-species just in case it ends up being split later on. It seems
splitting very much back in fashion but it seems impossible to keep
abreast of all the developments. Surely there could be a committee set
up by Birds Australia to review the official Australian list on an
annual basis that takes into account all the latest developments? I have
always lived and died by C&B but recently that seems to no longer be the
case.In the meantime I will try not to drown in the data.
Cheers
David Kowalick
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