:)
well, I was just trying to avoid it getting tetchy. I think we're discussin=
g it rationally anyway - once we talk about the actual issues. I think thou=
gh unless you know the DPA4060's & why they, unlike all other mics, don't s=
eem to be handled by the R-44 we're not going to find the answer in the are=
as you've brought up - as they refer to the general build & would therefore=
impact on other mics too.
thanks for the message.
--- In Gregory O'Drobinak <=
.> wrote:
>
> Jez:
>
> I'm wasn't being techy, nor talking down to you.
>
> Please contact me offline so that we can discuss this in a rational manne=
r and
> maybe come to some solutions for your problem.
>
> I would be glad to give you my phone number so that we can talk, as well.
>
> - Greg
>
> =C3=82=C2=
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jez <>
> To:
> Sent: Fri, June 22, 2012 2:46:57 PM
> Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: R-44 issue
>
> =C3=82=C2=A0
> Greg,
>
> perhaps some misunderstanding - I am not being unkind but I guess I found=
it
> somewhat frustrating when the very specific problem I was talking about s=
eemed
> to be ignored & instead assumptions were made about the issue being down =
to a
> possible lack of experience or understanding of the technology. Your firs=
t
> paragraph here also comes across like this & with respect, comments such =
as
> 'Your expectations of what is 'decent' may or may not be useful in practi=
ce' are
> a good example. We can't all know who's who & what their experience or ar=
tistry
> is on forums like this & thats why I personally think its best to not tal=
k down
> to folks or imply that what they know might not be good enough. If one th=
ink one
> knows more than others, one has stopped learning anyway.
>
> I wouldn't post on here about 'to be expected' issues with lower priced u=
nits
> quality of pre-amps etc etc - this thread was started to discuss a very s=
pecific
> issue with one microphone that functions perfectly well on all kinds of o=
ther
> devices, from high cost to low & I did what I could to explain the issues=
to
> avoid folks thinking it was just a quality of the recorder situation. I a=
lso
> pointed out that the R-44 has been purchased for students on courses to t=
ry -
> folks who either can't afford high end gear or are interested in what a
> pro-sumer 4 channel recorder can do. Whether you like the R-44 or not, it=
should
> work well & give decent results for the price & indeed it does with all k=
inds of
> mics connected, but not the DPA4060's it seems.
>
>
> The R-4 is a different machine indeed, but there are plenty of folks who =
say the
> pre-amps are noisier on that than on the R-44 for example. With any piece=
of kit
> (with a few exceptions) its always possible to find any number of folks p=
osting
> online about the pro's & con's. There's nothing wrong with the R-44 in ge=
neral.
> Its better build quality than a lot of lower cost recorders & its good at=
some
> things & not so good at others.
>
> I didn't create this thread to find out how many 'professional' field rec=
ordists
> don't use the R-44. I know lots myself (& have been one for quite a long =
time
> now) who don't use it & some who do, for certain projects mostly as a bac=
k-up
> for example. I could find you tons who don't like the DR-680 too - its kn=
own to
> be tricky to set in the field due to its design & there are all kinds of =
issues
> with software glitches, but every user will have a different experience.=
>
>
> I don't own an FR2LE myself but they're used on the courses, along with S=
ound
> Devices (my kit), Nagra etc etc. however, when connecting unbalanced unit=
s to
> any xlr based recorder I use impedance transforming adaptors.
>
> I really don't like it if conversations get tetchy on forums, it really d=
oesn't
> do any good. Having said that I also feel the same about equipment snobbe=
ry. The
> R-44 is a decent recorder for the price & once you burn in the pre-amps &=
get
> used to the settings between the sensitivity & gain the pre-amps are dece=
nt too,
> for the price, but the issues i'm having are nothing to do with that.
>
>
> The one issue that might be build-quality related is the electronic noise=
in the
> signal from the display. Having said that most recorders sub, shall we sa=
y,
> Sound Devices level, pick up some sounds from their displays - the FR2LE =
& the
> DR-680 do, though, as with the R-44, its at a very low level.
>
> I of course appreciate any help that folks can offer on issues when they =
come up
> & I try to return the favour when I can.
>
> so, lets put this behind us & move forward.
>
> ta.
>
> --- In Gregory O'Drobinak <gmodrobinak@=
>
> wrote:
> >
> > Jez:
> >
> > The balanced inputs, specifically the XLR mic inputs, of any recorder a=
re
> >simply
> >
> > some sort of differential amplifier. If that diff amp circuit is not cr=
afted
> > properly, then you=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0will=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0i=
ndeed pickup=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0hum or other signals and have various
>
> > other problems IF the circuit connected to it is not perfectly balanced=
and
> > grounded properly. It's a simple fact of the electronics. My background=
is in
> > electronics engineering, so I do have experience in this area.=C3=83=C2=
=82=C3=82=C2=A0 And I do
> >indeed
> >
> > understand your 'specific issue' here. Your expectations of what is 'de=
cent'
> >may
> >
> > or may not be useful in practice.=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0Your issue her=
e=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0is an aspect of electronics
> >
> > design, not one of aesthetics.
> >
> > I have been a musician and phonographer as well for many decades, so I =
have
> > owned and used a=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0myriad=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0o=
f mics and recorders. In the course of time I have
> >seen
> >
> > many cost-cutting practices done by manufacturers to get cost down and =
this can
> >
> > compromise quality when certain devices are connected to certain inputs=
. It
> > happens, even if you don't happen to believe it. It really depends on t=
he
> > conditions at the time and how the circuits are designed.
> >
> >
> > As for the quality of the mic preamps of the R-44, I personally know se=
veral
> > professional recordists who have had them and had issues with them. The=
y don't
>
> > consider them to be high quality preamps. I'm sure that there are other=
folks
> >on
> >
> > this list that will support this fact. The Roland R-4 is a MUCH differe=
nt unit,
> >
> > with good mic preamps. And I am quite happy with my Tascam DR-680.
> >
> >
> > BTW, how exactly do you connect unbalanced inputs to the XLR inputs of =
your
> > FR-2LE?
> >
> > Good luck with this problem. And please be kind to the people that are =
trying
> >to
> >
> > help you.
> >
> > - Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jez <tempjez@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Fri, June 22, 2012 4:19:12 AM
> > Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: R-44 issue
> >
> > =C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> > er....
> >
> > firstly, in 35 years of being involved with field recording i've never =
come
> > across this type of issue with a mic / recorder match when using 'decen=
t' mics
> >&
> >
> > recorders.
> >
> >
> > DPA's are not built to be fed into wireless transmitters - that is just=
one of
>
> > the options for them. They are built, these days, to be used with a var=
iety of
>
> > different options.
> >
> > No recorder, not even the cheap Zoom's, have trouble handling balanced =
or
> > unbalanced mics (other than issues of the quality of the signal & noise=
of the
>
> > pre-amps). To clarify my experience: I tutor on the Wildeye courses & e=
lsewhere
> >
> > so we get students with all kinds of mics & all levels of recorders. Ov=
er the
> > years (on these courses & elsewhere) i've used hundreds of different mi=
c /
> > recorder combinations & have never come across these issues.
> >
> >
> > I use Sound Devices gear, so i'm used to spending decent money to get d=
ecent
> > kit, however its simply wrong to imply that recorders of the level of t=
he R-44
>
> > isn't very good. In various ways its a better recorder than the FR2LE f=
or
> > example. By the way, if you're having issues with the FR2LE with unbala=
nced
> > inputs its not the recorder - we never have any issues with them on any=
> > unbalanced mics, piezo based units etc.
> >
> >
> > As I've tried to explain already, this issue appears to be a very speci=
fic
> >issue
> >
> > between the R-44 / R-26 & the DPA's - but it doesn't happen on any othe=
r
> > recorder - from the cheapest (with xlr inputs) to the higher cost units=
.
> > Therefore it is not an issue related to the issues you mention as lots =
of these
> >
> > other recorders don't have transformer balanced inputs.
> >
> > ta.
> >
> > --- In Gregory O'Drobinak <gmodrobina=
k@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Jez:
> > >
> > > Please forgive my earlier comment, but I couldn't resist! Really, it =
was
> >meant
> >
> >
> > > to point out that there are issues with mic preamps and mics that don=
't match
> >
> > >up
> > >
> > > well and this is based on sub-optimal design parameters.
> > >
> > > The DPA mics are not balanced out of the box; they are single-ended o=
utput
> >mics
> >
> > >
> > > that are designed to be fed into the single-ended preamps that
> >are=C3=83=C2=83=C3=A2=C2=80=C2=9A=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0built-in to
> >
> > >
> > > the wireless transmitters commonly sold with these mics. I assume tha=
t there
> >is
> >
> > >
> > > a cable adapter that is sold to make the 4060s 'look' like a balanced=
output,
> >
> > > but in reality it appears that DPA uses some tricks that fall short o=
f the
> > >mark.
> > >
> > > This is problem #1: the 4060s are not really balanced output mics.
> > >
> > > The second issue is that most inexpensive recorders do not have trans=
former
> > > balanced inputs, which can usually handle an unbalanced input gracefu=
lly. The
> >
> > > preamps in my FR-2LE, for example, are 'balanced' inputs but this is =
done
> > > electronically without the use of a transformer. The net result is th=
at under
> >
> > > various gain conditions the FR-2LE will not work well at all for sing=
le ended
> >
> > > inputs, such as a piezo transducer or a single-ended (not balanced) i=
nput
> >from
> >
> > >a
> > >
> > > mic or instrument via an XLR connector. Various noises, hum and other=
> >artifacts
> >
> > >
> > > can be heard as the mic gain is increased. So using a single-ended ou=
tput
> > > device, such as the 4060, into the poorly electronically balanced inp=
ut of
> >the
> >
> >
> > > R-44 results in mayhem instead of nicety. This has nothing to do with=
current
> >
> > > draw, but how well the signals are balanced at the input of the recor=
der.
> > >
> > > The 4060s work well on the SD series because=C3=83=C2=83=C3=A2=C2=80=
=C2=9A=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0I believe that they=C3=83=C2=83=C3=A2=C2=80=
=C2=9A=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0have
> > > transformer balanced inputs. I don't have time to go through the theo=
ry of
> >all
> >
> >
> > > of this, but you can research it on the web. Check what Rane has to s=
ay about
> >
> > > balkanced vs. unbalanced.
> > >
> > > So the rule of thumb is use truly balanced mics into balanced preamp =
inputs
> >and
> >
> > >
> > > use unbalanced mics into preamps designed specifically to handle unba=
lanced
> > > inputs. Most manufacturers are not going to tell you how well their b=
alanced
>
> > >mic
> > >
> > > preamps are going to work with unbalanced inputs. Below a certain (hi=
gh)
> >price
> >
> >
> > > point, you get what you paid for.
> > >
> > > Sorry for the bad news.
> > >
> > > - Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jez <tempjez@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Fri, June 22, 2012 2:50:52 AM
> > > Subject: [Nature Recordists] Re: R-44 issue
> > >
> > > =C3=83=C2=83=C3=A2=C2=80=C2=9A=C3=83=C2=82=C3=82=C2=A0
> > > thanks Grant, according to DPA the r-44 supplies more than enough pow=
er to
> > > handle even 4 of the DPA4060's connected & these issues appear even i=
f just
> >one
> >
> > >
> > > is attached. The powering issue also wouldn't explain the pick up of =
the
> > > internal electronics of the recorder (regardless of mic position) & i=
'm more
> >&
> >
> >
> > > more convinced that its some strange way the Roland recorders are bui=
lt that
>
> > > happens to come up with these issues when using this particular mic. =
That
> >said,
> >
> > >
> > > one chap who also has the R-44 & the DPA4060's has mentioned that his=
work
> >fine
> >
> > >
> > > !
> > >
> > > arghhhhhh !
> > >
> > > --- In "Grant Finlay" <grant@> wrot=
e:
> > > >
> > > > It's called "motor boating"
> > > > The non-techy explanation is that it can't supply enough power to t=
he mics,
> >
> > >you
> > >
> > > >need to roll off some of the bottom end to get around this.
> > > > Or use an outboard PH48v supply.
> > > > The SD302 has this issue too with various mics, sanken cs-1 etc..
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Grant.
> > > > http://naturesounds.co.nz
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
|