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2. Re: Surround Sound / Wildlife Recordings

Subject: 2. Re: Surround Sound / Wildlife Recordings
From: "Rob Danielson" danielson_audio
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:14 am ((PDT))
At 10:21 AM -0400 8/28/10, Charles Veasey wrote:
>
>
>Very interesting observations. You are an acute listeners, which is
>appreciated.
>
>Regarding the tightness you describe and feeling compelled to keep you
>head still. This is I feel is a major drawback on Ambi reproduction.
>Depending on the how the decoder is configured a sound localized at one
>position will produce energy at all or nearly all the speakers. This is
>the case even without reflections, for example, if you are artificially
>creating a soundscape. With small speaker arrays (I mean small in
>distance, not number of speaker) I have noticed that the localization
>shifts even by leaning my head one way or another. Of course this is
>true with all electroacoustics, but obviously if you have eight speakers
>producing output for a sound located at speaker 1, instead of only sound
>being emitted from speaker 1, then there is a greater potential for this
>proximity phenomenon to occur. That being said Ambi is all about
>soundscape reproduction, and with a properly configured system than it
>works extremely well.

Hi Charles-

Thanks for taking your time to respond and add to my, our awareness.

Over the last year, I've taken to mixing on my
feet because I find it easier to move my head
naturally. As I equalize, adjust gain, width and
panning, I purposely move my head from side to
side and forward and backwards a bit in order to
more easily detect phase problems. Its helped my
process, I think.

>
>Regarding the bass drop off, I can't say that I've ever noticed this
>effect. It should be noted that both recordings have a high pass filter
>at 250 Hz (to eliminate wind noise and handling noise). I think on the
>website, I noted it for one but not the other or some reason. I presume
>that you are talking about frequencies slightly higher though?

I did notice your <250 Hz cut note.  Yes, even
more. It feels like up to 450 Hz is
under-represented.  It hard for me to regard a
field recording as "realistic" without lots of
content under 125Hz working on my ears. Even the
quietest natural locations are loaded towards the
low end.  (Slightly less so with lush
environments towards the equator). I've become
more and more opinionated about the lowest
octaves. There are lots of them down there to
like. :-) I never met a HP filter I liked except
for achieving something unnatural.

>Regarding the containment on the Northeast Night Woodland Stream. It is
>true that I was in a pretty densely forested as I walked straight into
>the woods without a trail, the only clearing was the stream, which was
>pretty small.

The acoustics are most mysterious to me. I've
noticed that even 2' high grass can curl sound
backwards.

>Normally I'd love to hear your surround sound recordings, but currently
>only have access to a stereo playback rig.

Let me know when you're in surround again. Rob D.


>-charles
>
>On 8/28/10 12:06 AM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks for the tips, Charles.
>>
>>  I couldn't get my core audio card connected to
>>  Java Ambisonics Player, but this app started out
>>  looking very promising. The good news is Video
>>  Lan Player played the DTS format quick as pie!
>>
>>  I'll run quickly through some of my responses.
>>
>>  A. Instantly--- I'm aware that my "head" is doing
>>  something unusual to create space in the
>>  recording. I need more practice processing the
>>  "cues" provided by the array.
>>
>>  B. I would characterize the new mental effort as
>>  a "tightness--" like my brain is struggling to
>>  use very fine differences to infer a larger
>>  wholeness. I don't feel enveloped in air-- but I
>>  do sense a potential space. I feel compelled to
>>  keep my head very still. There's a sense of a
>>  lurking open-ness that extends mostly towards
>>  sounds I attend to. A fulfilling exception is in
>>  the rear field of the tree frogs in "Northeast
>>  Night Woodland Stream." These sounds do fill the
>>  rear dynamically from left to right and from left
>>  rear to left front with echoes that suggest some
>  > containment going on. Trees I presume.
>>
>>  C. Next, an impression I've noticed a number of
>>  times with ambi pieces made in wide open spaces.
>>  The sound of sources in the distance drop off
>>  more rapidly than I'm used to with spaced arrays.
>>  Its like there's more contrast within the "reach"
>>  into space. I not able to make out a "horizon"
>>  (typically bass and sustained lower midrange
>>  elements that come from far great distances).
>>  These bottom registers and even those of the
>>  tree frogs feel under-represented. The locust
>>  strain that rises unexpectedly out of the
>>  distance is very striking. Usually, robust
>>  sounds like this also carry cues of nearby
>>  reflective surfaces. The sounds that linger in
>>  the space in both of the ambi recordings feel
>>  "dryer" and more separate. The effect has strong
>>  merits as an aesthetic to explore and I can see
>>  why people like it.
>>
>>  D. The grasshoppers are fantastic! The movement
>>  and localization in proximity to the speakers is
>>  very, very precise. I could pluck them from the
>>  air. When they are fairly stationary in phantom
>>  locations between the speakers, my ears play
>>  tricks. It sounds like some high frequencies are
>>  rapidly oscillating back and forth between
>>  speakers. Its likely my brain stuttering trying
>>  to place cues that I'm not used to sorting out.
>>
>>  Thanks for sharing these works. I've learned a
>>  lot trying to put my responses into words. These
>>  comments are more about my listening abilities
>>  than the recordings probably. :-)
>>
>>  I can post some spaced surround work or maybe
>>  someone else wants to jump in? Rob D.
>>
>>  =3D =3D
>>
>>  At 2:24 PM -0400 8/27/10, Charles Veasey wrote:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >For windows, a very good one is Visual Virtual Microphone:
>>  ><<http://mcgriffy.com/audio/ambisonic/vvmic/>http://mcgriffy.com/audio=
/ambisonic/vvmic/><http://mcgriffy.com/audio/ambisonic/vvmic/>http://mcgrif=
fy.com/audio/ambisonic/vvmic/
>>  >
>>  >For cross platform try Roger Klaveness's Java Ambisonics Player.
>>  >Currently his site is messed up in that the html requires a download t=
o
>>  >view it, so here are both the info and software link:
>>  >
>>  ><<http://sites.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/ambplay.html>http://sit=
es.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/ambplay.html><http://sites.google.com/a/=
klaveness.info/www/ambplay.html>http://sites.google.com/a/klaveness.info/ww=
w/ambplay.html
>>  ><<http://sites.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/AmbisonicsPlayer.zip>ht=
tp://sites.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/AmbisonicsPlayer.zip><http://sit=
es.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/AmbisonicsPlayer.zip>http://sites.google=
.com/a/klaveness.info/www/AmbisonicsPlayer.zip
>>  >
>>  >There are more including a Windows Media Player plugin refer to the Wi=
ki:
>>  ><<http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Playback_Software>http://www=
.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Playback_Software><http://www.ambisonia.com/w=
iki/index.php/Playback_Software>http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Pla=
yback_Software
>>  >
>>  >peace.
>>  >Charles
>>  >
>>  >On 8/27/10 3:56 AM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> At 10:14 PM -0400 8/26/10, Charles Veasey wrote:
>>  >> >
>>  >> >Here are some nature recordings I made with the TetraMic using the
>>  >> >Motu Traveler and Edirol R-44.
>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  ><<<http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08-29.1=
193700776>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08-29=
.1193700776><http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08=
-29.1193700776>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-=
08-29.1193700776><<http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2=
008-08-29.1193700776>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile=
.2008-08-29.1193700776><http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicf=
ile.2008-08-29.1193700776>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisoni=
cfile.2008-08-29.1193700776
>>  > > >
>>  >>
>>  ><<<http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08-29.3=
106570230>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08-29=
.3106570230><http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-08=
-29.3106570230>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2008-=
08-29.3106570230><<http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile.2=
008-08-29.3106570230>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicfile=
.2008-08-29.3106570230><http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisonicf=
ile.2008-08-29.3106570230>http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/cveasey/ambisoni=
cfile.2008-08-29.3106570230
>  > >> >
>>  >> >-charles
>>  >>
>>  >> Hi Charles-
>>  >> I've come across these very titles before and was curious to hear th=
em.
>>  >>
>>  >> Grassy Plains Day Insects: Badlands
>>  > > Northeast Night Woodland Stream: Algonquin Provincial Park
>>  >>
>>  >> Is there a 5.1 format I can quickly play on my
>>  >> surround speakers connected to the audio card in
>>  >> my computer? I'm thinking of poly file formats
>>  >> that play with one click using a browser rather
>>  >> than downloading and loading files into
>>  >> multitrack apps, using special decoding plug-ins
>>  >> or streaming coax to a tuner? Hopefully there's
>>  >> one staring me in the face as I'd very much like
>>  >> to hear your work. If not, I'll give it another
>>  >> try to get Ambisonic files playing in Reaper or
>>  >> Logic v7 or ? Are there clear set-up directions
>>  >> for the easiest means you can point me to?
>>  >> Thanks, Rob D.
>>  >>
>>  >> =3D =3D =3D
>>  >>
>>  >> >
>>  >> >On 8/26/10 12:40 PM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Hi--
>>  >> >> I'd love to hear some samples of the surround
>>  >> >> work people are realizing with these arrays. Rob
>>  >> >> D.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> =3D =3D =3D
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> At 7:10 PM +0300 8/26/10, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote:
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >There are also the soundfield ambisonics
>>  >> >> >microphones - I' ve work with them outdoors but
>>  >> >> >always not in extreme conditions. I' m quite
>>  >> >> >happy with their sound !
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >I read somewhere though that Chris recently used
>>  >> >> >one in his trip to antarctica..
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >m
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >On 26 =C9=FC=C9"=C9=A1 2010, at 5:51 =C9 .=C9 ., Bernie Krause w=
rote:
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> Four 4060s aligned in a tetrahedral pattern will provide the
>>  >> basis for
>>  >> >> >> ambisonic surround that can be delivered by anything from 3
>>  to over
>>  >> >> >> 150 channels. And, yes, the surround provided by an MKH 30 and
>>  >> two 40s
>>  >> >> >> facing opposite directions (used by Martyn, Chris Watson, and
>>  a few
>>  >> >> >> others) provides a wonderful double MS result that can likewis=
e
>>  >> be re-
>>  >> >> >> programmed in an ambisonic configuration. The beauty of the
>>  >> double MS
>>  >> >> >> configuration is that only three channels are needed.
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> Bernie
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> On Aug 26, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Martyn Stewart wrote:
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> > I actually had a chance to use the DPA surround setup on a
>>  project
>>  >> >> >> > and was very impressed with them. I'm told they are the same
>>  >> >> >> > capsules as the 4060's. I use normally 2 MKH 40 back to back
>>  >> with 1
>>  >> >> >> > MKH-30 effectively.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> > > > Martyn
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > > > Sent from my iPad
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > On Aug 26, 2010, at 6:19 AM, clay
>>  >> >>
>>  >>
>>  >><<dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com><dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.co=
m><dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com><dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com>dan=

>>  <dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com>
>>  >> <dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com>
>>  >> >> <dan.cesonrocks%40gmail.com>>
>>  >> >> >>wrote:
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:29 AM,
>>  >> >> >>corticalsongs
>>  >> >>
>>  >>
>>  >><<corticalsongs%40yahoo.com><corticalsongs%40yahoo.com>=
<corticalsongs%40yahoo.com><corticalsongs%40yahoo.com>cortica=

>>  <corticalsongs%40yahoo.com>
>>  >> <corticalsongs%40yahoo.com>
>>  >> >> <corticalsongs%40yahoo.com>
>>  >> >> >> >> >wrote:
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>>> Any thoughts on using surround sound for wildlife? Are
>>  the mic
>>  >> >> >> >>>> specs
>>  >> >> >> >>> suited to wildlife?
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>> I would say that all you need is 4 mics to start. As far a=
s
>>  >> I can
>>  >> >> >> >>> tell the
>>  >> >> >> >>> fancy surround mics are all pretty noisy right now, perhap=
s
>>  >> thier
>>  >> >> >> >>> intended
>>  >> >> >> >>> use was the concert hall or foley stage. If you are
>>  recording a
>>  >> >> >> >>> jungle at
>>  >> >> >> >>> night, they would be fine, but as Dan pointed out, they ar=
e
>>  >> >> >> >>> probably too
>>  >> >> >> >>> noisy for most quiet places in North America.
>  > >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>> David
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>> __._,_.
>>  >> >> >> >>>
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >> I was thinking three mics would work, if one were
>>  Figure-8, plus
>>  > > >> >> >> front and
>>  >> >> >> >> rear facing cardiods?
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >> There is something called a Tetramic that might be useful,
>>  >> but still
>>  >> > > >> >> relatively noisy.
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >>
>>  >><<<<http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php>http://www.core-sound.co=
m/TetraMic/1.php><http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php>http://www.core-=
sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><<http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php>http://=
www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php=
>http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><<<http://www.core-sound.com/Tetr=
aMic/1.php>http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><http://www.core-sound.=
com/TetraMic/1.php>http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><<http://www.co=
re-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php>http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php><http:=
//www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php>http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.ph=
p
>>  >> >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> >> clay
>>  >> >> > > >>
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> --
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  >> --
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>  --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


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