At 10:50 AM -0700 6/30/10, Patrick Cooper wrote:
>
>Thanks again for the valuable info, Rob.
>
>I have been considering the Zoom recorders such as the H2. I was
>reading quite a thorough review of the H2 recently. The reviewer
>made several recordings of various subjects with the H2 (mainly
>musicians.) However, at one stage, he mentioned that he recorded a
>chorus of crickets. Due to the soft sounds produced by the crickets,
>he had to turn up the gain a fair bit and as a result, got quite a
>poor / noisy recording. I guess this is the norm with audio
>equipment when using a moderate amount of gain to try and record
>soft or distant sounds?
Quite a few pocket recorders, the H2 being one, are best-suited for
recording robust sounds like music, close mic'd voice. loud settings
and loud effects. Yes, when one increases the gain, the self-noise in
the mics and sometimes the "input noise" of the recorder's mic preamp
becomes more and more audible.
>
>Though I'm curious how a Hi-MD Mini Disc recorder would fare in a
>similar situation to the H2 with the gain pushed up.
Much better, but one would need to use low-noise or very low-noise
external mics for the Hi-MD to really shine.
>Imagine a scenario where the Zoom H2 and a Hi-MD recorder were both
>recording the sounds of birds calling from a bit of a distance away.
>The Zoom H2 was making use of it's own internal microphones and the
>Hi-MD recorder was equipped with a good quality, low noise
>omni-directional microphone. Because of the distance of the birds,
>the gain in both recorders has to be increased a reasonable amount.
>Which would be the noisiest recorder as the result of the increase
>in gain?
Raimund has not measured the input noise in the H2 recorder so we
don't know for sure how the noise it produces at high gain compares
to the self-noise of its built-in mics. Its sufficient to know,
however, that if you need to use high record gain, the noise produced
by the H2 will obscure quite a bit detail and space in the
recording-- neither are pleasurable with nature subjects and spaces.
The stereo imaging of the all of the built-in arrays is marginal
compared to what recordist can do with full size standalone stereo
arrays-- especially for subjects at distance as you propose.
> Would it be a close match or would there likely be one clear winner
>and loser? What I am interested in overall is obtaining clean audio.
>A lot of the time, when i have recorded audio in the past, either
>with tape recorders (or with my current Mini Dv camcorder) I tend to
>get a continous, undesirable sound that accompanies the sounds that
>I want to record.
I know all too well what you are describing. Poor sound quality is
very detracting and unnecessary. You are now on track to much better
recordings.
>
>Incidentally, it would also be interesting to read a comparison test
>between the H2 and a Hi-MD recorder both fitted with an external mic
>(the same brand and model low noise microphone) - recording soft /
>distant sounds with the gain pushed up. Then see which is the
>noisiest out of that particular comparison. However, I did read that
>the mic inputs on the H2 are a bit poor and prone to unwanted noise.
>As a response to this finding, the Zoom corporation admitted that
>this recorder was optimised for using the internal microphones. Have
>any other H2 owners experienced this?
>
>Because of the number of microphones on the H2 and their placement,
>do they behave like one omni-directional microphone? Ive been quite
>curious about that one.
In my opinion, for far subjects, the internal mic array of the H2 has
a hard time positioning the subjects in the sound sound stage (its
very narrow) and there's very little sense of depth.
>
>Regarding external microphones, I note that you give an approximate
>price of $300 for a pair of good quality, low noise omni-directional
>microphones (roughly $150 for each individual microphone.) At that
>price range, what would be a good choice (brand and model) for a mic
>that is quite sensitive and has a wide frequency range (and all the
>usual requirements for recording birds) that could run on a Hi-MD or
>other recorder's own internal batteries?
Yes on all accounts. The 4022's are almost identical to the 3032's
mentioned on that page. There are other options to research as well.
Having observed a number of people get their feet wet and then
promptly dive in when they can get the results like the ones they're
dreaming of,.. I'd definitely consider investing enough to get a
system with real promise opposed to investing 50% or 35% of that and
getting a system that will have significantly poorer noise and stereo
imaging performance. To date, I don't recall a single complaint about
3032's or 4022's as per sound capabilities.
>
>Rob: "You can get better quality for the money by buying bare mic
>capsules if you or a friend is handy with a soldering gun."
>
>Is this the same as that 'how to make your own microphone' as
>revealed on the Wildlife Sound Reording Society's website or
>something similar? Quite amazing really that you can make your own
>mic...just hope I or the soldering expert would have enough patience!
Very similar. Check our FAQ for other links. http://tinyurl.com/278ey93
Incidentally, most sound recordists grow into having several rigs. If
you started off with a pair of DIY EM172's with an H2, you could
still use it as low profile mobile rig when you get very low noise
mics in the future. Most recordists I know who managed AT3032's ->
Art Phantom II -> Hi-MD rigs for years now use either a Fostex FR-2LE
or a Sony D50 recorder. The M10 is okay too, but it has some
additional input noise noise compared to Hi-MD (both at high gain)
when used with very low-noise mics.
Your question regarding an ambience rig with mics and recorder for
$200 total is still waiting answer on the FAQ. Is this still what you
need to know or have you loosened up your budget some? Rob D.
>-- On Sat, 26/6/10, Rob Danielson <<type%40uwm.edu>> wr=
ote:
>
>From: Rob Danielson <<type%40uwm.edu>>
>Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Looking for a sound recorder on a
>tight budget
>To:
><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
m
>Received: Saturday, 26 June, 2010, 1:35 AM
>
>
>
>At 2:56 AM -0700 6/25/10, Patrick Cooper wrote:
>>When transferring audio files from the Mini Disc to pc via USB
>>connection, do you still have to monitor the levels?
>
>No, its like a file transfer or upload, all digital. It keeps PCM as
>eav and converts HiSP modes to wav as well. All 44.1K 16 bit. Convert
>these with another app to 48K for video.
>
>> would you say that this software is user-friendly to a complete
>>audio novice like myself?
>
>All of the students managed to use it fine and there was no whining
>like you read in the MD Community Forum. However, in a course like
>that, learning to use tools carefully and developing disaster
>check-lists is part of the training. Here's the Hi-MD disaster list
>we developed,
><https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/116/Hi-MD-Handbook/06116-HiMD-Hndbk.=
htm#Disaster_List>https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/116/Hi-MD-Handbook/0=
6116-HiMD-Hndbk.htm#Disaster_List
>which is part of the manual
><https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/116/Hi-MD-Handbook/06116-HiMD-Hndbk.=
htm>https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/116/Hi-MD-Handbook/06116-HiMD-Hndb=
k.htm
>
>Compared to a simple USB or SD card upload, SS seems really slow and
>unnecessary. Sony was worrying about people copying music and SS was
>their "solution." They've since given up on that but they won't give
>out their HiMD protection secrets TBOMK.
>
>>"All of the Hi-MD models have the same low-noise/high gain mic pre-amp
>>than can be crucial for applications where recordists must use very
>>low noise mics. Your needs may not match these or mics you will ever
>>use. That remains to be explored."
>>
>>Originally I going to discuss the sound recorder and microphone
>>options in seperate threads but oh well, I guess I'll combine the
>>two topics.
>
>A common sidetrack is buying the recorder first and not buying mics,
>recorder, and stereo array/wind protection as "system" within one's
>budget. That's the goal.
>
>>For at least the first several audio recordings, I plan to use an
>>omni-directional microphone in a natural bush setting to get a sense
> >of the surrounding environment with birds calling from different
>>directions and distances. Given the above information, do you reckon
>>that the low-noise / high gain mic pre-amps in Hi-MD recorders would
>>be suitable for such an application? Also, bear in mind that my
>>budget for microphones would be pretty tight too...probably under
>>$100.
>
>So can we assume $200USD for both recorder and mics?
>
>Hi-MD would be good should you decide that you need low noise or very
>low noise mics in the future. You'd have to spend <$400 to get a non
>Hi-MDrecorder with a better pre. BUT if you are not ever going to
>spend >$300 for a pair of mics, there's nothing to gain in the Hi-MD
>investment because recorders like the Zoom H2 are a fine match for
>the lower cost, or more important;y, moderately noise performance
>mics. You can get better quality for the money by buying bare mic
>capsules if you or a friend is handy with a soldering gun.
>
>I'm entering your question on the FAQ we are making. Anyone want to
>give it a shot? $200 for recorder and mics and stereo birds ambience:
><https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=3D0AZ5kt_Jb6O0yZGN2ZDQ5dzhfMjNmYncydnFn=
Mg&hl=3Den&authkey=3DCLPDwPEP#$200_Recorder_and_Stereo_Mics_Package_for_Loc=
ation_Ambience_and_Birds>https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=3D0AZ5kt_Jb6O0yZ=
GN2ZDQ5dzhfMjNmYncydnFnMg&hl=3Den&authkey=3DCLPDwPEP#$200_Recorder_and_Ster=
eo_Mics_Package_for_Location_Ambience_and_Birds
>
>Post your follow-up to the list as usual. Rod D.
>
>=3D =3D =3D
>
>>"Here's some more on the plusses of these recorders:
>><<http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa>http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa><http://tinyurl.c=
om/yyzrnfa>http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa
>>They we're
>>quite popular. I taught 100+
>>people to use them every semester so I know their plusses and minuses
>>pretty well."
>>
>>Thanks for the link. Some good information in there.
>>
>>Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>--- On Fri, 25/6/10, Rob Danielson
>><<type%40uwm.edu><type%40uwm.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>From: Rob Danielson
>><<type%40uwm.edu><type%40uwm.edu>>
>>Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Looking for a sound recorder on a
>>tight budget
>>To:
>><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com><naturerecordists%40yah=
oogroups.com>
>>Received: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 2:24 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>At 6:34 AM -0700 6/24/10, Patrick Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>I believe Sony currently produce one Mini Disc model but I wouldn't
>>>be buying such a device brand new. There's something that I should
>> >have mentioned in my introductory post. Money is tight so I'm on a
>>>very small budget. I'd be willing to spend up to $120 on the
>>>recorder although I may be tempted to spend a little more if I'm
>>>tempted by someone's particular recommendation.
>>
>>Hi Patrick.--
>>Thanks for creating the new subject line. There are quite a few
>>available on eBay for under $100, used. New, the cheapest model was
>>about $160USD. All of the lower cost models appear to be sold-out,
>>world wide. More inserts below.
>>
>>>I have read on the Wildlife Sound Recording Society's website that
>>>Mini Disc recorders are a good option for nature sound recordists on
>>>a small budget. Though they do have some inconviences that one has
>>>to put up with!
>>
>>One must use Sony's data transfer application, SonicStage which is
>>more involved and subject to lost recordings. You have to adopt some
>>very specific habits and use them regularly. The software is PC only
>>except for the last few HiMD models they produced.
>>
>>>I would be particularly interested in the Hi-MD models as they
>>>record audio that is uncompressed. According to the WSRS, some
>>>models have very low noise mic preamps though they don't specify
>>>many models that have such a technical refinement. Can anyone here
>>>list some particular Mini Disc models that have good mic preamps?
>>
>>All of the Hi-MD models have the same low-noise/high gain mic pre-amp
>>than can be crucial for applications where recordists must use very
>>low noise mics. Your needs may not match these or mics you will ever
>>use. That remains to be explored.
>>
>>Here's some more on the plusses of these recorders:
>><<http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa>http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa><http://tinyurl.c=
om/yyzrnfa>http://tinyurl.com/yyzrnfa
>>They we're
> >quite popular. I taught 100+
>>people to use them every semester so I know their plusses and minuses
>>pretty well.
>>
>>> Of course some models don't have manual recording levels or mic
>>>inputs so that would also be something to look at.
>>
>>Most do. With the first models, it required quite a few steps to get
>>into manual mode. And they didn't retain the manual setting upon
>>re-powering. The last 2-3 Hi-MD models had major upgrades but still
>>require SonicStage.
>>
>>re:
>>> I'll leave the discussion of microphones to another post.
>>
>>Mics are the hearts of all recording systems, even inexpensive ones.
>>Researching microphone options is the best place to start. Buying the
>>recorder first, its a bit like buying a paint brush before you know
>>how large your canvass will be, what colors you are going to be able
>>to afford and what you are painting. There are many folks on this
>>list who use lower cost mics and recorders and get very good species
>>recordings. One they know what your budget is, they can help you
>>research today's options and come up with the best investment(s) you
>>can make. People pride themselves in getting high quality with modest
>>gear. Rob D.
>>
>>>
>>>--- On Wed, 23/6/10, Mitch Hill
>>><<fmhill%40capcod.org><fmhill%40capcod.org><fmhill%=
Message: 40capcod.
Subject: org>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>From: Mitch Hill
>>><<fmhill%40capcod.org><fmhill%40capcod.org><fmhill%=
Message: 40capcod.
Subject: org>>
>>>Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] New to the group
>>>To:
>>><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com><naturerecordists%40ya=
hoogroups.com><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
ahoogroups.com
>>>Received: Wednesday, 23 June, 2010, 1:48 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Greetings Patrick Cooper,
>>>
>>>Welcome to the Nature Recordists group...
>>>
>>>I'm a newcomer to wildlife sound recording and to this group also, I've
>>>just started down this fascinating road of nature sound recordings start=
ing
>>>with the purchase of a new recorder on the first of June.
>>>
>>>Seeing as you comment about thinking of getting a mini-disc recorder and
>>>microphone, I would like to offer a few suggestions based on what I have
>>>learned in the past three weeks of experience gained along my path as a
>>>newcomer into this fascinating endeavor.
>>>
>>>First let me explain, I'[m a white haired old retired geezer having reti=
red
>>>from a career in Oceanography as an equipment designer and somewhat of a=
n
>>>underwater acoustics expert. My reason for explaining this is to offer a=
n
>>>explanation as to why I have a very good understanding of sound recordin=
g
>> >equipment and related technology. I have also been doing wildlife
>>>photography as a hobby since I was a young boy and like you, became
>>>interested in adding the capability of recording their sounds.
>>>
>>>However, starting out with this present endeavor with the rapid technolo=
gy
>>>advances that have occurred since my active days in the field, its a who=
le
>>>new ball game equipment wise.
>>>
>>>A couple of pieces of advice, when selecting a recorder, you want to be
>>>looking at music type recorders not voice recorders. Bird sounds range f=
rom
>>>about 500 hertz up to 14,000 hertz and you want a recorder enough range =
to
>>>be able to record clearly the full spectrum of a birds sound.
>>>
>>>Second bit of advice, you mentioned a mini-disc recorder. The mini-disc =
is
>>>a bit of technology that has fallen by the wayside and been replaced in =
the
>>>market place by the new digital PCM recorders. I doubt you will find any
>>>new mini-disc recorders on the market today.
>>>
>>>When I was looking for a recorder, having recently upgraded my camera
>>>equipment to DSLR cameras that use SDHC cards for image storage, one of =
my
>>>criteria for a digital PCM recorder was that it use the same type card t=
hat
>>>my cameras use and as I have a good card reader set up on my computer to
>>>download the recorder sound files as well as image files.
>>>
>>>Last but not least by far is the microphone. The selection of the right
>>>microphone for your application is the most important part of the proces=
s,
>>>again, you want a microphone designed for recording music, not voice and
> >>for the same reasons mentioned above and you can expect to spend more =
for
>>>the right microphone than you will the recorder,
>>>
>>>There is a whole gamut of microphones to select from, and this is where
>>>this Nature Recordists group can help you a lot as they did me. The most
>>>important issues to look at when selecting a microphone is the that the
>>>microphone should have a low noise floor figure, high sensitivity, and a
>>>compatible interface with the input of the recorder. i.e. how does the
>>>recorder and microphone match up as far as balanced or unbalanced input =
and
>>>input impedance as well as how is the microphone powered, either by an
>>>external battery, its own internal battery, or by the recorder itself.
>>>
>>>Sounds more complicated than it really is.
>>>
>>>After weeks of looking at specifications and asking lots of questions, I
>>>was looking at a Zoom H4n, a Sony PCM-M10, and an Olympus LS-11
>>>recorder. Any one of these three PCM recorders would have been a
>>>satisfactory choice however I chose the Olympus LS-11 recorder as its
>>>features seemed to fit most closely my needs as I saw them. At the time =
I
>>>bought the LS-11, I also bought a Sennheiser MKE 300 shotgun type
>>>microphone based on articles I'd read about people using this microphone
>>>for making bird sound recordings and it works reasonably well although i=
t
>>>seems a bit insensitive to me.
>>>
>>>About that same time I discovered the Naturerecordists group and joined
>>>it. One of my first questions to the group was about microphones and I
>>>received very good advice that led me to the immediate purchase of a
>>>Sennheiser ME66/K6. This ME66/K6 microphone has much higher sensitivity =
as
>>>well as the ability to be used with either a balanced input recorder or
>>>unbalanced as well as being powered either by an internal battery or
>>>phantom power from the recorder or an external power supply. As the LS-1=
1
>>>is a compact recorder, it has an unbalanced input and it does not have
>>>phantom power making the ME66/K6 about as close to the ideal microphone =
as
>>>I could find to use with this recorder.
>>>
>>>As this all has worked out for me, I'm very pleased with the sound
>>>recording setup as I have it and you can follow the "Wildlife" link
>>>following my signature below to hear a number of my recordings made with
>>>this setup.
>>>
>>>Enough of this running on, I've written all this in hopes that it will
>>>provide you with some insight as to getting started.
>>>
>>>Again, Welcome aboard, and I hope you get as much satisfaction form natu=
re
>>>sound recordings and this group as I do...
>>>
>>>At 01:59 AM 6/22/2010 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>
>>>>Hello there! As you see, I'm new to the group and also new to 'serious'
>>>>sound recording. I admit that I know next to nothing about audio but am
>>>>keen to learn. Thinking about getting a Mini Disc recorder and external
>>>>microphone.
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Mitch & Shadow...
>>>
>>><<<http://www.4shared.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html>http://www.4shared.=
com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html><http://www.4shared.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlif=
e.html>http://www.4shared.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html><<http://www.4shar=
ed.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html>http://www.4shared.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildl=
ife.html><http://www.4shared.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html>http://www.4sha=
red.com/dir/UTASxktL/wildlife.html
>>>
>>>Shadow's area:
>>><<<http://www.4shared.com/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html>http://www.4shared.co=
m/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html><http://www.4shared.com/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html=
>http://www.4shared.com/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html><<http://www.4shared.com/d=
ir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html>http://www.4shared.com/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html><ht=
tp://www.4shared.com/dir/ecfWjyZb/Shadow.html>http://www.4shared.com/dir/ec=
fWjyZb/Shadow.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>
>
>
>
--
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