While Martyn, Kevin, and I were leading a soundscape workshop in
Jackson Hole, Wyoming, last week,
we had a moment to record a dramatic series of thunderstorms that
swept through the valley. Basically, two types of systems were used to
capture the moment: LS-10 and SD 722s with Senn. MKH30-40 combos. The
result was a split decision. While the LS-10 captured in beautiful
detail, the delicate fabric of the rain and dynamic forces of the wind
effects, it completely lost the dramatic low end of the thunder.
Probably, because the MS systems were set up on a protected porch (to
keep the Rykotes dry), the detail of the rain was lost in favor of the
compelling dynamics of the thunder hits and rolls (although the rain
detail is easily accessible with a bit of EQ).
Meanwhile, Klas, who was also a monumental and honored presence at the
workshop, hooked up an LS-10 system to a new setup that proved to be
substantially noise-less. However, the low end (below 100Hz) is still
a problem.
Bernie
On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:53 AM, Rob Danielson wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bernie & Klas-
> No contest on the quest for convenience and reliability. I'm running
> trials and thinking about taking an MP2->H2 combo on a once in a
> lifetime jaunt with a bunch of 8GB cards. I wouldn't be able to
> tolerate the LS-10's <500 Hz noise for nocturnal and quiet location
> ambience. Its quite audible (those who are curious try "Powys LS-10"
> in the list archive). So far, I'm impressed by the simplicity and
> reliability of the H2,.. but I've just started working with it,.. Rob
> D.
>
> At 7:08 AM -0700 7/2/09, Bernie Krause wrote:
> >Even as a staunch 722-er, I'm with you, Klas. It's a lovely
> >device...particularly when one achieves a certain age.
> >
> >Bernie
> >
> >On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Klas Strandberg wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree that the LS-10 input amp doesn't seem to be the most
> silent.
> >>
> >> But:
> >> Having used handheld recorders that switches them self off or, on
> >> occasions, don't work at all for no understandable reason... crash
> >> when USB connected or make the PC crash, dirty phantom power,
> >> radiates HF and in one case had a 300 Hz sine wave at -45 db....
> have
> >> had to switch glasses to read the display, got lost in menus and
> >> almost erased recordings, fumbled in the dark with strange lids
> over
> >> the batteries... flash card get stuck, lids falling off, poor
> >> headphone amps, tripod threads at the most strange places...
> >>
> >> The LS-10 has made me like recording again. All you need to do is
> use
> >> a mike with a high enough output to run over the few extra db noise
> >> that the input amp causes.
> >>
> >> Not having done measurements, it sounds to me that the ME-series
> does
> >> that, for example.
> >>
> >> Klas.
> >>
> >> At 12:23 2009-07-02, you wrote:
> >> >Hi Rob,
> >> > I have recorded with a binaural set based on 2 x
> >> > EM158's in my anechoic chamber - this would be more related to
> >> > Pauls original setup, fairly low noise binaural mics (compared to
> >> > Panasonic WM6x's) I think the point with the recorders is similar
> >> > to photography, you either take the point and shooter and live
> with
> >> > the noise - or take the SLR and a backpack to match. I know the
> >> > backpack wont fit in my pocket and is far less discrete in use :)
> >> > Its contents are also far more expensive than the recorder in my
> >> > pocket but alas we know the path eventually leads to the NT1A. :)
> >> >
> >> >Regarding the noise, I mailed you on 30th June / EM158 Noise Tests
> >> >with a zip containing an annotated .amad file. I can resend if it
> >> >didnt make it.
> >> >
> >> ><http://urlme.net/audio/RecNoise-E158.flac>http://urlme.net/audio/Rec=
Noise-E158.flac
> >> >
> >> >The test setup in the Semi finished :/ Semi-Anechoic Chamber:
> >> >
> >> >Pair of binaural EM158 headphones placed pointing up on acoustic
> >> >foam, approx. 0.5M in front of them a very quiet clock.
> >> >
> >> >Recorded Sequence is:
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
> >> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
> >> >Obs: Plug in Power ON - Gain Hi, Max Level (80) =3D Maximum for this
> >> recorder.
> >> >
> >> >0.5 Sec Gap
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
> >> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
> >> >Obs: Battery box (2 x 6.8 K, 9V battery, 2.2uF decoupling caps ->
> >> Out)
> >> >
> >> >1 Sec Gap
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: FR2-LE
> >> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
> >> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max
> Gain
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: FR2-LE
> >> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
> >> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp 3-Oclock, Rec Level Max
> Gain
> >> >
> >> >I then tested a converted Edirol CS-15 Mic:
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: FR2-LE
> >> >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
> >> >UEC14 Figure 8.
> >> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max
> Gain
> >> >
> >> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
> >> >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
> >> >UEC14 Figure 8.
> >> >Obs: PIP Power, Max Level, Gain Hi.
> >> >
> >> >No leveling / matching has been made - the flac contains the
> >> >original cropped audio
> >> >placed into the sequence as described above.
> >> >
> >> >BR,
> >> >Mike.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--- In
> >><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
.com
> ,
> >>Rob Danielson <>
> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > At 7:47 PM +0000 7/1/09, picnet2 wrote:
> >> > > >Hi,
> >> > > >I'll chime in here with my "Holiday Mic test" - not intended
> to
> >> be a
> >> > > >scientific test and wasnt intended for release but I think
> others
> >> > > >may find it interesting. - Im just debating which (air) mics
> to
> >> take
> >> > > >on holiday.
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi Mike--
> >> > >
> >> > > re:
> >> > >
> >> > > >Avoid the H2 if you can its mic-pre's are hiss factories. (i
> own
> >> > > >one) - line in is reasonable, LS-10 is a much better choice.
> >> > >
> >> > > If one is going to use low-noise mics? Your test seems to
> >> provide an
> >> > > example of the importance of this distinction (see below).
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Heres a quick test where all mics are normalized to roughly
> the
> >> same
> >> > > >level. - This may give some indication of a lower noise mic
> >> (NT4 at
> >> > > >around 16 dBA) vs multiple Electrets in a DIY mic costing < 80
> >> > > >dollars. Its noise figure is perhaps around 18-19dBA. The
> >> sphere has
> >> > > >~13 dB more output than the NT4 under the same conditions.
> >> > > >
> >> > > ><<http://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-
> nt4.mp3>http://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-
> nt4.mp3>htt
> >> >
> >><p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>p://
> urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Not a brilliant time to recording in the garden due to the
> >> traffic
> >> > > >noise - I wanted to get some impression of how the different
> rigs
> >> > > >sounded as Ive never tried this combination.
> >> > > >...
> >> > > >Recorded Sequence as follows:-
> >> > > >
> >> > > >FR2-LE with NT4 from its battery.
> >> > > >FR2-LE with DIY Sphere Mic (Polyethylene Marine Buoy + 3xEM158
> >> > > >capsules on each channel) - running via a DIY battery -> XLR
> box.
> >> > > >plus me moving around to orient the sphere towards the birds.
> >> > > >Edirol R09HR with NT4 from its battery -> Mic / PIP OFF / Gain
> >> High
> >> > > >& Max level.
> >> > > >Edirol R09HR with Sphere via the same battery box.
> >> > >
> >> > > If performing to the manufacturer's self-noise spec of 16 dB(A)
> >> > > (which I doubt based on this test ands other comparisons I've
> >> made:
> >> > > <http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx>http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx) the NT-4
> >>_should_ be on the cusp of
> >> > > revealing some input noise difference in the pre performance of
> >> the
> >> > > recorders.
> >> > >
> >> > > I took the closest matching segments from your four gear
> >> combinations
> >> > > and approximately matched the playback levels:
> >> > > <http://tinyurl.com/kn596f>http://tinyurl.com/kn596f
> >> > >
> >> > > This "hiss" is fairly well matched in segments 1,2 and 3
> >> suggesting
> >> > > that these three mics/powering conditions have similar noise
> >> > > performance that is audible above the recorders' pre noise,...
> >> > > HOWEVER, what happened to the "hiss" in section #4?
> >> > >
> >> > > This discrepancy suggests to me the "hiss" in tests 1, 2 and
> 3 is
> >> > > environmental and not mic-self noise audible above the pres.
> (Or
> >> > > another, yet accounted for change in the results Test 4).
> >> > >
> >> > > You'll probably need to do such comparisons in a much quieter/
> more
> >> > > controlled location and, better yet, use/include your NT-1A's
> for
> >> > > reference. Probably best that all of the combos be recorded
> at max
> >> > > or close to max gain too. Rob D.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >BR,
> >> > > >Mike.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >--- In
> >> > > ><naturerecordists
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> >> > groups.com,
> >> > > >Rob Danielson <type@> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> At 5:36 PM +0000 7/1/09, Tom wrote:
> >> > > >> > > If one is only going to use noisy mics (as Klas points
> >> > out), then one
> >> > > >> >> can save money and buy an Zoom H2. An LS-10 provides no
> real
> >> > > >> >> advantage and still has more input noise than most
> >> recordists like
> >> > > >> >> when they discover the important role mic-self noise can
> >> play. :-)
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >Having had personal experience of both these recorders I'd
> >> have to
> >> > > >> >say that the LS-10 does have significant advantages over
> the
> >> H2. If
> >> > > >> >you keep the "Mic Gain" switch in the low range the input
> >> noise is
> >> > > >> >low enough that it doesn't impinge on recordings made
> with a
> > > K6/ME66
> >> > > >> >with a reasonable degree of ambient sound (wind, birdsong,
> >> insects
> >> > > >> >etc.)
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >The H2 on the other hand had a pretty awful mic input which
> >> was
> >> > > >> >significantly noisier than using the built in mics. The
> only
> >> way
> >> > > >> >you'd want to use the H2 would be with an external mic
> >> preamp which
> >> > > >> >would negate the cost saving over the LS-10!
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >These are just subjective observations, and I can't
> directly
> >> compare
> >> > > >> >the two as I sold the H2 in order to trade up to the
> LS-10 -
> >> if
> >> > > >> >anyone has the means to directly compare the mic inputs on
> >> the two
> >> > > > > >units I'd be interested to see the results.
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >Tom W.
> >> > > >>
> >> > ><<<http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
> ><http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><<http://ww=
w.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
> >http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
> >> ><http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Hi Tom--
> >> > > >> Listening for "quality" is inherently "subjective," so such
> >> > > >> observations are equally, if not ultimately, more
> important. A
> >> > > >> technical note to support your observation: An ME-66 mic
> with
> >> > > >> ~10dB(A) self-noise _should_ show-up the pre differences in
> >> the H2
> >> > > >> and the LS-10. However, if one plans to use electret mics of
> >> the type
> >> > > >> that Paul asked about (with more than 22dB[A] self-noise)
> any
> >> pre
> >> > > >> difference would not be audible. This might be an important
> >> fact if
> >> > > >> one knows that one will only use the electret or other
> >> noisier mics
> >> > > > > with the recorder. Rob D.
> >> > > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
> >> >sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie
> >> Krause
> >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
> >> S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
> >> Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
> >> email: <telinga%40bahnhof.se>
> >> website: www.telinga.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Wild Sanctuary
> >POB 536
> >Glen Ellen, CA 95442
> >707-996-6677
> ><http://www.wildsanctuary.com>http://www.wildsanctuary.com
> ><chirp%40wildsanctuary.com>
> >Google Earth zooms:
> ><http://earth.wildsanctuary.com>http://earth.wildsanctuary.com
> >SKYPE: biophony
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
>
>
>
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707-996-6677
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