Hi Bernie & Klas-
No contest on the quest for convenience and reliability. I'm running
trials and thinking about taking an MP2->H2 combo on a once in a
lifetime jaunt with a bunch of 8GB cards. I wouldn't be able to
tolerate the LS-10's <500 Hz noise for nocturnal and quiet location
ambience. Its quite audible (those who are curious try "Powys LS-10"
in the list archive). So far, I'm impressed by the simplicity and
reliability of the H2,.. but I've just started working with it,.. Rob
D.
At 7:08 AM -0700 7/2/09, Bernie Krause wrote:
>Even as a staunch 722-er, I'm with you, Klas. It's a lovely
>device...particularly when one achieves a certain age.
>
>Bernie
>
>On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Klas Strandberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I agree that the LS-10 input amp doesn't seem to be the most silent.
>>
>> But:
>> Having used handheld recorders that switches them self off or, on
>> occasions, don't work at all for no understandable reason... crash
>> when USB connected or make the PC crash, dirty phantom power,
>> radiates HF and in one case had a 300 Hz sine wave at -45 db.... have
>> had to switch glasses to read the display, got lost in menus and
>> almost erased recordings, fumbled in the dark with strange lids over
>> the batteries... flash card get stuck, lids falling off, poor
>> headphone amps, tripod threads at the most strange places...
>>
>> The LS-10 has made me like recording again. All you need to do is use
>> a mike with a high enough output to run over the few extra db noise
>> that the input amp causes.
>>
>> Not having done measurements, it sounds to me that the ME-series does
>> that, for example.
>>
>> Klas.
>>
>> At 12:23 2009-07-02, you wrote:
>> >Hi Rob,
>> > I have recorded with a binaural set based on 2 x
>> > EM158's in my anechoic chamber - this would be more related to
>> > Pauls original setup, fairly low noise binaural mics (compared to
>> > Panasonic WM6x's) I think the point with the recorders is similar
>> > to photography, you either take the point and shooter and live with
>> > the noise - or take the SLR and a backpack to match. I know the
>> > backpack wont fit in my pocket and is far less discrete in use :)
>> > Its contents are also far more expensive than the recorder in my
>> > pocket but alas we know the path eventually leads to the NT1A. :)
>> >
>> >Regarding the noise, I mailed you on 30th June / EM158 Noise Tests
>> >with a zip containing an annotated .amad file. I can resend if it
>> >didnt make it.
>> >
>> ><http://urlme.net/audio/RecNoise-E158.flac>http://urlme.net/audio/RecN=
oise-E158.flac
>> >
>> >The test setup in the Semi finished :/ Semi-Anechoic Chamber:
>> >
>> >Pair of binaural EM158 headphones placed pointing up on acoustic
>> >foam, approx. 0.5M in front of them a very quiet clock.
>> >
>> >Recorded Sequence is:
>> >
>> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>> >Obs: Plug in Power ON - Gain Hi, Max Level (80) =3D Maximum for this
>> recorder.
>> >
>> >0.5 Sec Gap
>> >
>> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>> >Obs: Battery box (2 x 6.8 K, 9V battery, 2.2uF decoupling caps ->
>> Out)
>> >
>> >1 Sec Gap
>> >
>> >Recorder: FR2-LE
>> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>> >
>> >Recorder: FR2-LE
>> >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp 3-Oclock, Rec Level Max Gain
>> >
>> >I then tested a converted Edirol CS-15 Mic:
>> >
>> >Recorder: FR2-LE
>> >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>> >UEC14 Figure 8.
>> >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>> >
>> >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>> >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>> >UEC14 Figure 8.
>> >Obs: PIP Power, Max Level, Gain Hi.
>> >
>> >No leveling / matching has been made - the flac contains the
>> >original cropped audio
>> >placed into the sequence as described above.
>> >
>> >BR,
>> >Mike.
>> >
>> >
>> >--- In
>><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
om,
>>Rob Danielson <>
> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > At 7:47 PM +0000 7/1/09, picnet2 wrote:
>> > > >Hi,
>> > > >I'll chime in here with my "Holiday Mic test" - not intended to
>> be a
>> > > >scientific test and wasnt intended for release but I think others
>> > > >may find it interesting. - Im just debating which (air) mics to
>> take
>> > > >on holiday.
>> > >
>> > > Hi Mike--
>> > >
>> > > re:
>> > >
>> > > >Avoid the H2 if you can its mic-pre's are hiss factories. (i own
>> > > >one) - line in is reasonable, LS-10 is a much better choice.
>> > >
>> > > If one is going to use low-noise mics? Your test seems to
>> provide an
>> > > example of the importance of this distinction (see below).
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >Heres a quick test where all mics are normalized to roughly the
>> same
>> > > >level. - This may give some indication of a lower noise mic
>> (NT4 at
>> > > >around 16 dBA) vs multiple Electrets in a DIY mic costing < 80
>> > > >dollars. Its noise figure is perhaps around 18-19dBA. The
>> sphere has
>> > > >~13 dB more output than the NT4 under the same conditions.
>> > > >
>> > > ><<http://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>htt=
p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>htt
>> >
>><p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>p://urlme.net/=
audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3
>> > > >
>> > > >Not a brilliant time to recording in the garden due to the
>> traffic
>> > > >noise - I wanted to get some impression of how the different rigs
>> > > >sounded as Ive never tried this combination.
>> > > >...
>> > > >Recorded Sequence as follows:-
>> > > >
>> > > >FR2-LE with NT4 from its battery.
>> > > >FR2-LE with DIY Sphere Mic (Polyethylene Marine Buoy + 3xEM158
>> > > >capsules on each channel) - running via a DIY battery -> XLR box.
>> > > >plus me moving around to orient the sphere towards the birds.
>> > > >Edirol R09HR with NT4 from its battery -> Mic / PIP OFF / Gain
>> High
>> > > >& Max level.
>> > > >Edirol R09HR with Sphere via the same battery box.
>> > >
>> > > If performing to the manufacturer's self-noise spec of 16 dB(A)
>> > > (which I doubt based on this test ands other comparisons I've
>> made:
>> > > <http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx>http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx) the NT-4
>>_should_ be on the cusp of
>> > > revealing some input noise difference in the pre performance of
>> the
>> > > recorders.
>> > >
>> > > I took the closest matching segments from your four gear
>> combinations
>> > > and approximately matched the playback levels:
>> > > <http://tinyurl.com/kn596f>http://tinyurl.com/kn596f
>> > >
>> > > This "hiss" is fairly well matched in segments 1,2 and 3
>> suggesting
>> > > that these three mics/powering conditions have similar noise
>> > > performance that is audible above the recorders' pre noise,...
>> > > HOWEVER, what happened to the "hiss" in section #4?
>> > >
>> > > This discrepancy suggests to me the "hiss" in tests 1, 2 and 3 is
>> > > environmental and not mic-self noise audible above the pres. (Or
>> > > another, yet accounted for change in the results Test 4).
>> > >
>> > > You'll probably need to do such comparisons in a much quieter/more
>> > > controlled location and, better yet, use/include your NT-1A's for
>> > > reference. Probably best that all of the combos be recorded at max
>> > > or close to max gain too. Rob D.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >BR,
>> > > >Mike.
>> > > >
>> > > >--- In
>> > > ><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > groups.com,
>> > > >Rob Danielson <type@> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> At 5:36 PM +0000 7/1/09, Tom wrote:
>> > > >> > > If one is only going to use noisy mics (as Klas points
>> > out), then one
>> > > >> >> can save money and buy an Zoom H2. An LS-10 provides no real
>> > > >> >> advantage and still has more input noise than most
>> recordists like
>> > > >> >> when they discover the important role mic-self noise can
>> play. :-)
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >Having had personal experience of both these recorders I'd
>> have to
>> > > >> >say that the LS-10 does have significant advantages over the
>> H2. If
>> > > >> >you keep the "Mic Gain" switch in the low range the input
>> noise is
>> > > >> >low enough that it doesn't impinge on recordings made with a
> > K6/ME66
>> > > >> >with a reasonable degree of ambient sound (wind, birdsong,
>> insects
>> > > >> >etc.)
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >The H2 on the other hand had a pretty awful mic input which
>> was
>> > > >> >significantly noisier than using the built in mics. The only
>> way
>> > > >> >you'd want to use the H2 would be with an external mic
>> preamp which
>> > > >> >would negate the cost saving over the LS-10!
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >These are just subjective observations, and I can't directly
>> compare
>> > > >> >the two as I sold the H2 in order to trade up to the LS-10 -
>> if
>> > > >> >anyone has the means to directly compare the mic inputs on
>> the two
>> > > > > >units I'd be interested to see the results.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >Tom W.
>> > > >>
>> > ><<<http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><http=
://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><<http://www.pterod=
aktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
>> ><http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
>> > > >> >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Hi Tom--
>> > > >> Listening for "quality" is inherently "subjective," so such
>> > > >> observations are equally, if not ultimately, more important. A
>> > > >> technical note to support your observation: An ME-66 mic with
>> > > >> ~10dB(A) self-noise _should_ show-up the pre differences in
>> the H2
>> > > >> and the LS-10. However, if one plans to use electret mics of
>> the type
>> > > >> that Paul asked about (with more than 22dB[A] self-noise) any
>> pre
>> > > >> difference would not be audible. This might be an important
>> fact if
>> > > >> one knows that one will only use the electret or other
>> noisier mics
>> > > > > with the recorder. Rob D.
>> > > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> >"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>> >sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie
>> Krause
>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
>> S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
>> Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
>> email: <telinga%40bahnhof.se>
>> website: www.telinga.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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