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5. Re: SP-TFB-2 with Edirol R-09HR or Olympus LS-10?

Subject: 5. Re: SP-TFB-2 with Edirol R-09HR or Olympus LS-10?
From: "Rob Danielson" danielson_audio
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 7:56 am ((PDT))
Hi Bernie & Klas-
No contest on the quest for convenience and reliability. I'm running
trials and thinking about taking an MP2->H2 combo on a once in a
lifetime jaunt with a bunch of 8GB cards. I wouldn't be able to
tolerate the LS-10's <500 Hz noise for nocturnal and quiet location
ambience. Its quite audible (those who are curious try "Powys LS-10"
in the list archive). So far, I'm impressed by the simplicity and
reliability of the H2,.. but I've just started working with it,.. Rob
D.

At 7:08 AM -0700 7/2/09, Bernie Krause wrote:
>Even as a staunch 722-er, I'm with you, Klas. It's a lovely
>device...particularly when one achieves a certain age.
>
>Bernie
>
>On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Klas Strandberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  I agree that the LS-10 input amp doesn't seem to be the most silent.
>>
>>  But:
>>  Having used handheld recorders that switches them self off or, on
>>  occasions, don't work at all for no understandable reason... crash
>>  when USB connected or make the PC crash, dirty phantom power,
>>  radiates HF and in one case had a 300 Hz sine wave at -45 db.... have
>>  had to switch glasses to read the display, got lost in menus and
>>  almost erased recordings, fumbled in the dark with strange lids over
>>  the batteries... flash card get stuck, lids falling off, poor
>>  headphone amps, tripod threads at the most strange places...
>>
>>  The LS-10 has made me like recording again. All you need to do is use
>>  a mike with a high enough output to run over the few extra db noise
>>  that the input amp causes.
>>
>>  Not having done measurements, it sounds to me that the ME-series does
>>  that, for example.
>>
>>  Klas.
>>
>>  At 12:23 2009-07-02, you wrote:
>>  >Hi Rob,
>>  > I have recorded with a binaural set based on 2 x
>>  > EM158's in my anechoic chamber - this would be more related to
>>  > Pauls original setup, fairly low noise binaural mics (compared to
>>  > Panasonic WM6x's) I think the point with the recorders is similar
>>  > to photography, you either take the point and shooter and live with
>>  > the noise - or take the SLR and a backpack to match. I know the
>>  > backpack wont fit in my pocket and is far less discrete in use :)
>>  > Its contents are also far more expensive than the recorder in my
>>  > pocket but alas we know the path eventually leads to the NT1A. :)
>>  >
>>  >Regarding the noise, I mailed you on 30th June / EM158 Noise Tests
>>  >with a zip containing an annotated .amad file. I can resend if it
>>  >didnt make it.
>>  >
>>  ><http://urlme.net/audio/RecNoise-E158.flac>http://urlme.net/audio/RecN=
oise-E158.flac
>>  >
>>  >The test setup in the Semi finished :/ Semi-Anechoic Chamber:
>>  >
>>  >Pair of binaural EM158 headphones placed pointing up on acoustic
>>  >foam, approx. 0.5M in front of them a very quiet clock.
>>  >
>>  >Recorded Sequence is:
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>>  >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>>  >Obs: Plug in Power ON - Gain Hi, Max Level (80) =3D Maximum for this
>>  recorder.
>>  >
>>  >0.5 Sec Gap
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>>  >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>>  >Obs: Battery box (2 x 6.8 K, 9V battery, 2.2uF decoupling caps ->
>>  Out)
>>  >
>>  >1 Sec Gap
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: FR2-LE
>>  >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>>  >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: FR2-LE
>>  >Mic: 2 x Em158N
>>  >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp 3-Oclock, Rec Level Max Gain
>>  >
>>  >I then tested a converted Edirol CS-15 Mic:
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: FR2-LE
>>  >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>>  >UEC14 Figure 8.
>>  >Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>>  >
>>  >Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>>  >Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>>  >UEC14 Figure 8.
>>  >Obs: PIP Power, Max Level, Gain Hi.
>>  >
>>  >No leveling / matching has been made - the flac contains the
>>  >original cropped audio
>>  >placed into the sequence as described above.
>>  >
>>  >BR,
>>  >Mike.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >--- In
>><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>=
om,
>>Rob Danielson <>
>  > wrote:
>>  > >
>>  > > At 7:47 PM +0000 7/1/09, picnet2 wrote:
>>  > > >Hi,
>>  > > >I'll chime in here with my "Holiday Mic test" - not intended to
>>  be a
>>  > > >scientific test and wasnt intended for release but I think others
>>  > > >may find it interesting. - Im just debating which (air) mics to
>>  take
>>  > > >on holiday.
>>  > >
>>  > > Hi Mike--
>>  > >
>>  > > re:
>>  > >
>>  > > >Avoid the H2 if you can its mic-pre's are hiss factories. (i own
>>  > > >one) - line in is reasonable, LS-10 is a much better choice.
>>  > >
>>  > > If one is going to use low-noise mics? Your test seems to
>>  provide an
>>  > > example of the importance of this distinction (see below).
>>  > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >Heres a quick test where all mics are normalized to roughly the
>>  same
>>  > > >level. - This may give some indication of a lower noise mic
>>  (NT4 at
>>  > > >around 16 dBA) vs multiple Electrets in a DIY mic costing < 80
>>  > > >dollars. Its noise figure is perhaps around 18-19dBA. The
>>  sphere has
>>  > > >~13 dB more output than the NT4 under the same conditions.
>>  > > >
>>  > > ><<http://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>htt=
p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>htt
>>  >
>><p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>p://urlme.net/=
audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3
>>  > > >
>>  > > >Not a brilliant time to recording in the garden due to the
>>  traffic
>>  > > >noise - I wanted to get some impression of how the different rigs
>>  > > >sounded as Ive never tried this combination.
>>  > > >...
>>  > > >Recorded Sequence as follows:-
>>  > > >
>>  > > >FR2-LE with NT4 from its battery.
>>  > > >FR2-LE with DIY Sphere Mic (Polyethylene Marine Buoy + 3xEM158
>>  > > >capsules on each channel) - running via a DIY battery -> XLR box.
>>  > > >plus me moving around to orient the sphere towards the birds.
>>  > > >Edirol R09HR with NT4 from its battery -> Mic / PIP OFF / Gain
>>  High
>>  > > >& Max level.
>>  > > >Edirol R09HR with Sphere via the same battery box.
>>  > >
>>  > > If performing to the manufacturer's self-noise spec of 16 dB(A)
>>  > > (which I doubt based on this test ands other comparisons I've
>>  made:
>>  > > <http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx>http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx) the NT-4
>>_should_ be on the cusp of
>>  > > revealing some input noise difference in the pre performance of
>>  the
>>  > > recorders.
>>  > >
>>  > > I took the closest matching segments from your four gear
>>  combinations
>>  > > and approximately matched the playback levels:
>>  > > <http://tinyurl.com/kn596f>http://tinyurl.com/kn596f
>>  > >
>>  > > This "hiss" is fairly well matched in segments 1,2 and 3
>>  suggesting
>>  > > that these three mics/powering conditions have similar noise
>>  > > performance that is audible above the recorders' pre noise,...
>>  > > HOWEVER, what happened to the "hiss" in section #4?
>>  > >
>>  > > This discrepancy suggests to me the "hiss" in tests 1, 2 and 3 is
>>  > > environmental and not mic-self noise audible above the pres. (Or
>>  > > another, yet accounted for change in the results Test 4).
>>  > >
>>  > > You'll probably need to do such comparisons in a much quieter/more
>>  > > controlled location and, better yet, use/include your NT-1A's for
>>  > > reference. Probably best that all of the combos be recorded at max
>>  > > or close to max gain too. Rob D.
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > > >BR,
>>  > > >Mike.
>>  > > >
>>  > > >--- In
>>  > > ><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>
>>  > groups.com,
>>  > > >Rob Danielson <type@> wrote:
>>  > > >>
>>  > > >> At 5:36 PM +0000 7/1/09, Tom wrote:
>>  > > >> > > If one is only going to use noisy mics (as Klas points
>>  > out), then one
>>  > > >> >> can save money and buy an Zoom H2. An LS-10 provides no real
>>  > > >> >> advantage and still has more input noise than most
>>  recordists like
>>  > > >> >> when they discover the important role mic-self noise can
>>  play. :-)
>>  > > >> >
>>  > > >> >Having had personal experience of both these recorders I'd
>>  have to
>>  > > >> >say that the LS-10 does have significant advantages over the
>>  H2. If
>>  > > >> >you keep the "Mic Gain" switch in the low range the input
>>  noise is
>>  > > >> >low enough that it doesn't impinge on recordings made with a
>  > K6/ME66
>>  > > >> >with a reasonable degree of ambient sound (wind, birdsong,
>>  insects
>>  > > >> >etc.)
>>  > > >> >
>>  > > >> >The H2 on the other hand had a pretty awful mic input which
>>  was
>>  > > >> >significantly noisier than using the built in mics. The only
>>  way
>>  > > >> >you'd want to use the H2 would be with an external mic
>>  preamp which
>>  > > >> >would negate the cost saving over the LS-10!
>>  > > >> >
>>  > > >> >These are just subjective observations, and I can't directly
>>  compare
>>  > > >> >the two as I sold the H2 in order to trade up to the LS-10 -
>>  if
>>  > > >> >anyone has the means to directly compare the mic inputs on
>>  the two
>>  > > > > >units I'd be interested to see the results.
>>  > > >> >
>>  > > >> >Tom W.
>>  > > >>
>>  > ><<<http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><http=
://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><<http://www.pterod=
aktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
>>  ><http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
>>  > > >> >
>>  > > >>
>>  > > >> Hi Tom--
>>  > > >> Listening for "quality" is inherently "subjective," so such
>>  > > >> observations are equally, if not ultimately, more important. A
>>  > > >> technical note to support your observation: An ME-66 mic with
>>  > > >> ~10dB(A) self-noise _should_ show-up the pre differences in
>>  the H2
>>  > > >> and the LS-10. However, if one plans to use electret mics of
>>  the type
>>  > > >> that Paul asked about (with more than 22dB[A] self-noise) any
>>  pre
>>  > > >> difference would not be audible. This might be an important
>>  fact if
>>  > > >> one knows that one will only use the electret or other
>>  noisier mics
>>  > > > > with the recorder. Rob D.
>>  > > >>
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > > --
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  > >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >------------------------------------
>>  >
>>  >"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>>  >sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie
>>  Krause
>>  >Yahoo! Groups Links
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
>>  S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
>>  Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
>>  email: <telinga%40bahnhof.se>
>>  website: www.telinga.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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