I agree that the LS-10 input amp doesn't seem to be the most silent.
But:
Having used handheld recorders that switches them self off or, on
occasions, don't work at all for no understandable reason... crash
when USB connected or make the PC crash, dirty phantom power,
radiates HF and in one case had a 300 Hz sine wave at -45 db.... have
had to switch glasses to read the display, got lost in menus and
almost erased recordings, fumbled in the dark with strange lids over
the batteries... flash card get stuck, lids falling off, poor
headphone amps, tripod threads at the most strange places...
The LS-10 has made me like recording again. All you need to do is use
a mike with a high enough output to run over the few extra db noise
that the input amp causes.
Not having done measurements, it sounds to me that the ME-series does
that, for example.
Klas.
At 12:23 2009-07-02, you wrote:
>Hi Rob,
> I have recorded with a binaural set based on 2 x
> EM158's in my anechoic chamber - this would be more related to
> Pauls original setup, fairly low noise binaural mics (compared to
> Panasonic WM6x's) I think the point with the recorders is similar
> to photography, you either take the point and shooter and live with
> the noise - or take the SLR and a backpack to match. I know the
> backpack wont fit in my pocket and is far less discrete in use :)
> Its contents are also far more expensive than the recorder in my
> pocket but alas we know the path eventually leads to the NT1A. :)
>
>Regarding the noise, I mailed you on 30th June / EM158 Noise Tests
>with a zip containing an annotated .amad file. I can resend if it
>didnt make it.
>
>http://urlme.net/audio/RecNoise-E158.flac
>
>The test setup in the Semi finished :/ Semi-Anechoic Chamber:
>
>Pair of binaural EM158 headphones placed pointing up on acoustic
>foam, approx. 0.5M in front of them a very quiet clock.
>
>Recorded Sequence is:
>
>Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>Mic: 2 x Em158N
>Obs: Plug in Power ON - Gain Hi, Max Level (80) =3D Maximum for this recor=
der.
>
>0.5 Sec Gap
>
>Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>Mic: 2 x Em158N
>Obs: Battery box (2 x 6.8 K, 9V battery, 2.2uF decoupling caps -> Out)
>
>1 Sec Gap
>
>Recorder: FR2-LE
>Mic: 2 x Em158N
>Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>
>Recorder: FR2-LE
>Mic: 2 x Em158N
>Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp 3-Oclock, Rec Level Max Gain
>
>I then tested a converted Edirol CS-15 Mic:
>
>Recorder: FR2-LE
>Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>UEC14 Figure 8.
>Obs: Battery box out -> FR2-LE - Preamp Max Gain, Rec Level Max Gain
>
>Recorder: Edirol R09HR
>Mic: Converted CS-15, Left Channel =3D 3 x Em158N - Right Channel =3D
>UEC14 Figure 8.
>Obs: PIP Power, Max Level, Gain Hi.
>
>No leveling / matching has been made - the flac contains the
>original cropped audio
>placed into the sequence as described above.
>
>BR,
>Mike.
>
>
>--- In Rob Danielson <> wrote:
> >
> > At 7:47 PM +0000 7/1/09, picnet2 wrote:
> > >Hi,
> > >I'll chime in here with my "Holiday Mic test" - not intended to be a
> > >scientific test and wasnt intended for release but I think others
> > >may find it interesting. - Im just debating which (air) mics to take
> > >on holiday.
> >
> > Hi Mike--
> >
> > re:
> >
> > >Avoid the H2 if you can its mic-pre's are hiss factories. (i own
> > >one) - line in is reasonable, LS-10 is a much better choice.
> >
> > If one is going to use low-noise mics? Your test seems to provide an
> > example of the importance of this distinction (see below).
> >
> > >
> > >Heres a quick test where all mics are normalized to roughly the same
> > >level. - This may give some indication of a lower noise mic (NT4 at
> > >around 16 dBA) vs multiple Electrets in a DIY mic costing < 80
> > >dollars. Its noise figure is perhaps around 18-19dBA. The sphere has
> > >~13 dB more output than the NT4 under the same conditions.
> > >
> > ><http://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3>htt
> p://urlme.net/audio/fr2le-nt4-sphere-r09hr-sphere-nt4.mp3
> > >
> > >Not a brilliant time to recording in the garden due to the traffic
> > >noise - I wanted to get some impression of how the different rigs
> > >sounded as Ive never tried this combination.
> > >...
> > >Recorded Sequence as follows:-
> > >
> > >FR2-LE with NT4 from its battery.
> > >FR2-LE with DIY Sphere Mic (Polyethylene Marine Buoy + 3xEM158
> > >capsules on each channel) - running via a DIY battery -> XLR box.
> > >plus me moving around to orient the sphere towards the birds.
> > >Edirol R09HR with NT4 from its battery -> Mic / PIP OFF / Gain High
> > >& Max level.
> > >Edirol R09HR with Sphere via the same battery box.
> >
> > If performing to the manufacturer's self-noise spec of 16 dB(A)
> > (which I doubt based on this test ands other comparisons I've made:
> > http://tinyurl.com/6zhyxx) the NT-4 _should_ be on the cusp of
> > revealing some input noise difference in the pre performance of the
> > recorders.
> >
> > I took the closest matching segments from your four gear combinations
> > and approximately matched the playback levels:
> > http://tinyurl.com/kn596f
> >
> > This "hiss" is fairly well matched in segments 1,2 and 3 suggesting
> > that these three mics/powering conditions have similar noise
> > performance that is audible above the recorders' pre noise,...
> > HOWEVER, what happened to the "hiss" in section #4?
> >
> > This discrepancy suggests to me the "hiss" in tests 1, 2 and 3 is
> > environmental and not mic-self noise audible above the pres. (Or
> > another, yet accounted for change in the results Test 4).
> >
> > You'll probably need to do such comparisons in a much quieter/more
> > controlled location and, better yet, use/include your NT-1A's for
> > reference. Probably best that all of the combos be recorded at max
> > or close to max gain too. Rob D.
> >
> >
> > >BR,
> > >Mike.
> > >
> > >--- In
> > ><naturerecordists%40yahoogroups.com>
> groups.com,
> > >Rob Danielson <type@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> At 5:36 PM +0000 7/1/09, Tom wrote:
> > >> > > If one is only going to use noisy mics (as Klas points
> out), then one
> > >> >> can save money and buy an Zoom H2. An LS-10 provides no real
> > >> >> advantage and still has more input noise than most recordists li=
ke
> > >> >> when they discover the important role mic-self noise can play. :=
-)
> > >> >
> > >> >Having had personal experience of both these recorders I'd have to
> > >> >say that the LS-10 does have significant advantages over the H2. I=
f
> > >> >you keep the "Mic Gain" switch in the low range the input noise is
> > >> >low enough that it doesn't impinge on recordings made with a K6/ME=
66
> > >> >with a reasonable degree of ambient sound (wind, birdsong, insects
> > >> >etc.)
> > >> >
> > >> >The H2 on the other hand had a pretty awful mic input which was
> > >> >significantly noisier than using the built in mics. The only way
> > >> >you'd want to use the H2 would be with an external mic preamp whic=
h
> > >> >would negate the cost saving over the LS-10!
> > >> >
> > >> >These are just subjective observations, and I can't directly compa=
re
> > >> >the two as I sold the H2 in order to trade up to the LS-10 - if
> > >> >anyone has the means to directly compare the mic inputs on the two
> > > > >units I'd be interested to see the results.
> > >> >
> > >> >Tom W.
> > >>
> ><<http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/><http://=
www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/>http://www.pterodaktyl.co.uk/
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Hi Tom--
> > >> Listening for "quality" is inherently "subjective," so such
> > >> observations are equally, if not ultimately, more important. A
> > >> technical note to support your observation: An ME-66 mic with
> > >> ~10dB(A) self-noise _should_ show-up the pre differences in the H2
> > >> and the LS-10. However, if one plans to use electret mics of the ty=
pe
> > >> that Paul asked about (with more than 22dB[A] self-noise) any pre
> > >> difference would not be audible. This might be an important fact if
> > >> one knows that one will only use the electret or other noisier mics
> > > > with the recorder. Rob D.
> > >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>"While a picture is worth a thousand words, a
>sound is worth a thousand pictures." R. Murray Schafer via Bernie Krause
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Telinga Microphones, Botarbo,
S-748 96 Tobo, Sweden.
Phone & fax int + 295 310 01
email:
website: www.telinga.com
|