OK Walt, I have traced back through e-mails on this subject and can not
find the outcome! Was this a new species or a sub-species or are they
still looking into it?
Martyn
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Knapp
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:06 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Nature Recordists] Re: Mystery Frog
Marty Michener wrote:
> Thursday I spoke by phone with Skip (aka James D.) Lazell, who knows
Robert
> Shoop, now retired to one of Georgia's islands, as an excellent
> herpetologist. Skip is not 'net connected', so could not look at your
> photos, but said he would not be surprised at all for you to find a
new
> species, given the kind of energy and care you have put into your
field
> work distribution studies. Skip said that any one kind of genetic
study
> cannot always be depended on for sound taxonomical decisions, but a
suite
> would tell a true picture. He reiterated our theme that more
observational
> field work is needed world wide.
Remember, I'm in the process of trying to sift out Pine Barrens
Treefrogs from Georgia. And those have not been documented for the
state. Narrowmouth toad calls are not the same thing at all, but I'm
constantly tuned for the unusual. I listen carefully to every sound I
run across. And any unknowns get recorded and sonograms done. Usually
dead ends, insects or whatever. This is especially a problem with the
Little Grass Frog, which has insects very similar to it.
I certainly agree, I'm expecting that the genetic study on these guys is
just going to give us odds of various choices. If it gives us something
solid and absolutely sure I'll be surprised.
One little observation, the throats of these frogs are darkened, but not
by the degree of normal male narrowmouths. Which brings us back to the
suggestion that we might have female calling. Which, of course, would be
just about as significant a finding.
> I asked for an example of a single parameter giving a warped picture,
and
> he cited the Black-tailed Deer, which have the DNA almost matching
other
> north American deer, but mitochondrial DNA of a MOOSE, unlike any
other
> deer. The implications on the ancestry of these deer boggle the mind.
Yes, that must give rise to some interesting speculation. It really
boils down to any negative finding telling us little. Differences have
causes, no matter how twisted the trail to find them. A negative on
difference just means keep looking.
Same as in my search for the distribution of the frogs. I never consider
that I did not find them any evidence they are not there. Only if I did
find them is significant. Though if one continues not to find them
season after season, then the odds do grow that they are not there. But
one only has to look at my search for the Brimleys, which took years,
but was successful in the end.
More than anything else, biology needs more eyes and ears out there.
There simply is not the money for enough paid field workers. Everywhere
one of the volunteer herp surveys has been done, new information has
come to light. Some of it very fundamental.
When the herp atlas started here, Bird-voiced Treefrogs were thought to
have a disjunct population just to the south of where I live. Not after
I got done, that population is part of the main population, and the
distribution edge has been extended nearly 20 miles north of my home. I
dislike the idea of disjunct populations.
> It reminds of the reputed exchange between Bishop Sam Wilberforce and
Dr.
> Thomas Huxley, during the public debate on evolution, or as it was
then
> called, Darwinism. The Bishop turned to Dr. Huxley at the end of his
long
> tirade, and said: " . . now tell me Dr. Huxley, on which side of your
> family have you descended from a monkey - on your mother's side, or on
your
> father's side?"
>
> Dr. Huxley muttered to a friend: "God has delivered him into my
hands.",
> got up, paused, and spoke to his audience: "I would rather be
descended
> directly from an ape than to be an intellectual prostitute."
Chuckle ;-)
That debate was more about debating than science anyway.
Walt
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