HANZAB ought be available on the Internet.

["Philip Veerman" <>]

Sure it is perfectly fair to raise a suggestion. Denis asked Does COG have any involvement in Birds Australia, these days? Can we attempt to influence them to see the merits of regarding HANZAB as part of the Commons? I think it would be hypocrisy of COG to agitate on this, unless COG were to also put those publications - that it sells - on free use on the internet also.

 

I think any commercial or fair and reasonable individual reward for effort of the authors of the works of Shakespeare, Dickens, and The Bible (and presumably other vast numbers of other fine texts) has long since past its use by date, with no existing author available to receive royalties. Even so I see price tags on these books in the shops. So this consideration is different to a current publication. A relevant question is whether the financial investment in HANZAB has been recouped or ran at a loss. Although even if it has been recouped, it would still be inequitable to now make it freely available at the expense of those who have paid. Making things available on the internet on computer does not make it universally available. Computers and internet is expensive and are a barrier to many people. I know someone who bought the set of HANZAB on a impulse buy, as an investment, who probably rarely opens it and does not have a computer.  

 

But I am confused about one thing. Denis told us that Birds Australia refuses to put HANZAB on the Internet. However Denis also says: Board of Birds Australia. ..... to suggest to them that they ought live up to the various promises which they have given, to at least provide a subscription service to HANZAB. I don't follow the connection between "various promises" (when & where) and "refuses". If indeed there is a conflict, the question is a fair one. I think it would be a huge admin load to implement providing a subscription service to HANZAB.

Yes there is a difference between referring to a reference text and plagiarising it. So my point on that is an aside and probably a minor one. Just that having it available on-line makes it so much easier to extract whole sections and thus plagiarise.

 

I accidentally typed the word "you" instead of "who", once in my last message: "those you have paid" should have been "those who have paid". 

 

Philip

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Wilson [
Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2011 9:56 PM
To: Geoffrey Dabb
Cc: COG bird discussions
Subject: Re: [canberrabirds] HANZAB ought be available on the Internet.

I thank the various members of the COG 
chatline for their responses - both on and off line.

I realise that
HANZAB was a huge publishing venture, and yes, of course I realise that there
are commercial considerations involved.

However, my hope was that by
throwing my little pebble in the pond of the COG Chatline, that one day a
tsunami might just reach as far away as the hallowed halls of the Board of Birds
Australia. If not a tsunami, then at least a ripple, to suggest to them that
they ought live up to the various promises which they have given, to at least
provide a subscription servce to HANZAB.

In response to one of Philip's
points, there is a difference between referring to a reference text, for 
research purposes, and plagiarising it. Indeed there is the concept of "Fair
 Use" accepted within US Copyright Law, or "Fair Dealing" (in Australian
law), and which has been accepted as part of Internet practice.

In
answer to several (different) suggestions about why something which some people
have paid large amounts of money for ought be available free - I would like to
draw the distinction between the information available in HANZAB and the 
physical copies. We all know books have a value which is seldom related to the
intrinsic worth of the information contained therein. Book collectors know that,
Booksellers make a living from that, too. 
Anthony Powell expressed that
nicely with his work: "Books Do Furnish a Room".

I am inviting
COG members to consider the information of HANZAB as being worthy of being
demanded to enter the Commons. After all, Shakespeare, Dickens, and The Bible
(and vast numbers of other fine texts) are all publicly available. I do not
expect (or aspire) to own an historic version of the Bible, bound in black
Moroccan Leather with a gold leaf lettering on the binding. But I can freely
look up the passage in the New Testament where Jesus overturned the tables of
the money changers in the Temple.

• "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves." Mark 11.15
  

I had
forgotten about the doves.

On the COG forum, that seems as good a point
as any to leave this debate.

Cheers

Denis Wilson

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Geoffrey Dabb <> wrote:

Just quickly, while it is for Birds Australia to respond, there is probably a commercial arrangement between BA as copyright holder and OUP as publisher.  A commercial reason will often be at the heart of why much information is not on the Internet.

 

So many questions posed on this chatline can be answered by a little research, starting with a glance into a field guide or two and then, if necessary, progressing down the usual research paths as appropriate to the particular question.

 

Questions about local occurrence or movements can generally be answered by reference to Steve Wilson’s book or the COG atlas, the list on the COG website, Philip’s publication, a look at an ABR or two, or a question to the long-suffering Martin, who generally finds the time for a quick response.  The chatline archive should be an early port of call.

 

The point about HANZAB is that it is a great dump of information gleaned from all – or nearly all – published records available at the cut-off for the relevant volume, bearing in mind that the first appeared more than 20 years ago.

 

HANZAB is particularly useful on questions such as behaviour and feeding.  Whether it is worth consulting depends on how much the person raising the question wants to know the answer.  For Canberra residents the volumes are available at various libraries. 

  

 

From: Denis Wilson [
Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2011 11:37 AM
To: COG bird discussions
Subject: [canberrabirds] HANZAB ought be available on the Internet.

 

Following a separate thread of conversation about mixed feeding flocks and the diet of Finches, Geoffrey Dabb kindly quoted some information from HANZAB. That sparked something which has troubled me for many years.

Birds Australia refuses to put HANZAB on the Internet. Is this an appropriate time for me to query why HANZAB, seemingly a truly wonderful resource, is still not availble on the Internet?

Birds Australia is entitled to regard their publication effort as worthy of aiming for "cost recovery". Fair enough.
But as their website now refers persons to a private bookshop, presumably they regard their involvement in the publication process as completed.

I come from the old school, believing that such knowledge ought be available to all, regardless of their personal financial means. I believe it is time that Birds Australia handed HANZAB over, to enter the "Commons". Such important intellectual knowledge ought be available to all - according to their interest, not according to their private "means", nor according to their access to an Institutional Library.

Surely it is time that HANZAB entered the world of the "Commons" - as a shared intellectual property. That's what the Internet would be perfect for. Surely it is time for Birds Australia to enter the Internet age?

COG once played a role in the old body, the RAOU, prior to the disastrous "corporatisation" process which resulted in the formation of Birds Australia and the separation of COG (and other regional affiliates). Does COG have any involvement in Birds Australia, these days? Can we attempt to influence them to see the merits of regarding HANZAB as part of the Commons?

Denis Wilson
"The Nature of Robertson"
www.peonyden.blogspot.com

-- 
Denis Wilson
"The Nature of Robertson"
www.peonyden.blogspot.com