Hi Michael,
I have talked to my supervisor and he believes there may not be enough interest for a formal talk here at ANU, but an alternative would be to contact COG http://canberrabirds.org.au/ m("canberrabirds.org.au","cogoffice");"> and possibly do a talk during one of their regular meetings here in Canberra. I am sure there will be a lot of interest and I would definitely be interesting in coming along.
Thanks,
Brani
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:50 PM, M and S Guppy <> wrote:
Brani, lovely picture of the BT. I've kept it, hope you don't mind?
I was wondering if anyone up there would be interested in a talk on what we are doing?
I attach a quick summary of the work.
Cheers Michael.
On 31/01/2011, at 8:02 AM, Branislav Igic wrote: Hi Michael,
Yes we were indeed told about the consequences of using those colour metal bands and I believe there were also photos being passed around. We were also told there were risks with the bands slipping under or over each other so we were advised not to use those metal bands at all. So not to worry, your experience is being shared with people banding thornbills.
I have been banding my birds with plastic split colour bands over anodised ABBBS bands only on one foot which so far seems to be working quite well (attached is an example). The only difficulty with this is that the anodised bands are a bit more rigid and so not as easy to band nestlings with. As a result I have started banding my nestlings with an additional plain and unmarked ABBBS band on the other foot (no plastic band) to increase my colour combinations.
It was Dr. David Green who did his PhD on the life history and mating systems of the brown thornbill here in Canberra who first discovered problems with using plastic bands next to the foot. So indeed brown thornbill have had problems with plastic band in the past. Also, as Ive said my colleagues in Tasmania have begun having trouble with plastic colour bands, regardless of them being on top of ABBBS metal bands. I'm very happy to hear you have not had any problems but it is definitely worth keeping our eyes peeled closely if any should arise.
I hope we keep in touch and share our findings. Let me know if you find any of your birds vocalising while in mist-nets or while you are banding nestlings.
All the best,
Brani
P.S. I was in Captains Flat over the weekend and found a family of brown thornbills that were doing very elaborate mobbing calls towards me. The only one I could clearly identify for sure was blackbird mimicry, the rest were a total mystery. Very exciting!
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:11 PM, M and S Guppy <> wrote:
Brani, great stuff, very interesting. I will have a listen and get back to you. God, we know nothing do we!
Now, the banding issue, again very interesting. We use an orange master on the metal, and two colours on the left leg. We also were instructed to use metal bands and did so. But it all went pear shaped as the bands started folding back on themselves and causing damage. Especially the band on top of the numbered metal, but even two colour metal bands together.
I have attached a picture to show you what was happening. Note that the problem is happening on both legs, with both combinations. It was terribly distressing for us and we had to recapture all the birds and reband with plastic. Luckily no birds actually lost legs, but it was getting close!
It seems to be OK with a plastic on top of a metal, but never any sort of metal on metal. We now have a range of combinations and are keeping tabs on them. There is no problem with plastic on plastic or metal on plastic, or plastic next to the foot. I think the problem was with another species of thornbill that spent its time on the ground, got dirt in the band, sharpened the band and started cutting into the foot. We have no such problems with Brown or Striated Thornbills here. But it is distressing to find that our experience, which has been reported, has not got out to people who are banding Brown Thornbills.
Cheers and thanks for the informaton.
Michael
On 28/01/2011, at 8:39 AM, Branislav Igic wrote:
Hi Michael,
Thank you for the poster, it is very interesting.
Although our birds sound quite different, there are a few song elements that are similar. I found this also the case with my recordings of brown thornbills from Namadgi National Park and also from comparisons with brown thornbill recordings on the Bird Observation & Conservation Australia bird song CD. I have detected a lot of variation of song structure within different parts of the gardens themselves but just don't have enough time to analyse the data to look at these patterns. Seems brown thornbill vocalisations can be quite variable both between and within different locations.
The mimicry I have found can be very subtle at times and then very pronounced at other times depending on the behavioural context it is produced in. My colleagues working on brown thornbills in Tasmania also believe that their birds do not mimic as much as mine here in the gardens. Although, they do have some recordings of mimicry. It is possible that the bird population here in the gardens is much denser than that elsewhere and as such the thornbills here interact with other species more regularly. Again this is just speculation on my part. I am sending you one of my recordings of a thornbill mimicking a crimson rosella while in the mist-net. It appears that crimson rosella is the most clear case of mimicry most people detect.
I was also curious. From your colour banded thornbill on the poster, it appears you band your birds with 1 metal band and 3 plastic colour bands (2 on each leg). I only ask because I and my Tasmanian colleagues were told by the ABBBS that brown thornbills have had foot inflammation problems with plastic bands in the past and so should not place plastic bands where they are in direct contact with the foot. In fact, my Tasmanian colleagues have found that even always placing the plastic bands on top of a metal (so not next to the foot) can cause some horrific disfigurements...They have subsequently been removing all plastic bands from banded birds. I have not found this to be the case with my birds but I am keeping my eyes peeled. Have you noticed anything similar?
Thanks,
Brani
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:43 PM, M and S Guppy <> wrote:
Brani, good to hear back from you.
First, we have published a poster on our sound work, at the latest IOC meeting in Brazil. Fullagar and Guppy. Peter Fullagar and I have done 2 intensive sessions on the breeding birds, and I do as much as I can in between. I have processed the various calls into about 7 distinct calls, which are described on the poster. I will try to send you a copy of the poster as an attachment so you can have a look at what we have found. You should be able to blow up the attachment and read the texts and look at the sonograms.
Second, we have read about this mimicry, but really we have not come across it here at all, and we hear the birds all the time. I reckon I know all the calls the Brown Thornbills make down here and I don't think any of them are mimicry. This is sort of interesting as either we are not recognizing it as such (and we really do know all the bird calls on the site), or they don't do it here.
We should have a talk about it.
Cheers Michael.
On 27/01/2011, at 7:53 AM, Branislav Igic wrote: Hi Sarah and Michael,
Thank you very much for your email. It is always nice to hear from others who have taken a keen interest in these extraordinary little birds!
I myself am currently doing my PhD at ANU. I have been studying the vocal behaviour of brown thornbills within the Australian National Botanic Gardens over the past year. I am primarily studying their vocal mimicry behaviour to identify why exactly they copy other species. I am sure while you were banding nestlings/adults you would have heard how elaborate and interesting their vocal mimicry is. I haven't been collecting too detailed information in regards to their breeding due to my time limitations with experiments etc. but I do have a lot data on their vocal behaviour.
Have you heard any interesting vocalisations during your work with your birds?
Yes I am sure there will be some way we can help each other out.
Thanks,
Brani
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:58 PM, M and S Guppy <> wrote:
Hello, we were told of your conversation about banded Brown Thornbills. We wanted to let you know that we also colour band BT's, and have done so on a 10 ha site on our property for 5 years now.
We find all their nests each year, and for at least 90% of the nests, at least one bird is colour banded. We have collected a lot of data now on nest sites, nesting period, nest success rates, nests/season/pair, territory sizes, and even the vocabulary of the two birds at the nest during nesting.
Just making contact in case there is any mutual benefit to be had from the two studies.
Cheers Michael and Sarah
Sarah and Michael Guppy
1708 Maulbrooks Rd
Moruya, NSW, 2537
Australia
Tel. (0)2 4474 4272
--
Branislav Igic
PhD candidate
Evolution, Ecology and Genetics
Research School of Biology
Australian National University
Mobile:+61-4-2027-4657
Lab: +61-2-6125-5651
Sarah and Michael Guppy 1708 Maulbrooks Rd Moruya, NSW, 2537 Australia
Tel. (0)2 4474 4272
--
Branislav Igic
PhD candidate
Evolution, Ecology and Genetics
Research School of Biology
Australian National University
Mobile:+61-4-2027-4657
Lab: +61-2-6125-5651
<M.W-N 1002ai caught_rosella.wav>
Sarah and Michael Guppy 1708 Maulbrooks Rd Moruya, NSW, 2537 Australia
Tel. (0)2 4474 4272
--
Branislav Igic
PhD candidate
Evolution, Ecology and Genetics
Research School of Biology
Australian National University
Mobile:+61-4-2027-4657
Lab: +61-2-6125-5651
<IMG_9330.jpg>
Sarah and Michael Guppy 1708 Maulbrooks Rd Moruya, NSW, 2537 Australia
Tel. (0)2 4474 4272
--
Branislav Igic
PhD candidate
Evolution, Ecology and Genetics
Research School of Biology
Australian National University
Mobile:+61-4-2027-4657
Lab: +61-2-6125-5651
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