I said there wasn't good evidence in general, and then specifically said
there were some individual exceptions. It's easy to say in some specific
circumstances cats are a problem, but it's much more difficult to say that
they are a problem everywhere, or even in the majority of places.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Chris Sanderson
<>wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I disagree with the premise that science hasn't proven the cat to be a
> problem. There are some good island ecology papers that directly implicate
> cats with extinctions (which the Age author casually dismisses), and of
> course the highly anecdotal story about the lighthouse keeper's cat and the
> Stephens Island Wren in New Zealand (where "Tibbles" allegedly
> singlehandedly wiped the entire species off the face of the earth, though
> it turns out he had some help from feral cats).
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephens_Island_Wren
>
> Other than that direct evidence, there is a suite of exclusion experiments
> (such as island arks and predator free sanctuaries) where, in the absence
> of introduced carnivores, native animals have begun to thrive again. This
> in my mind constitutes evidence of an at least partially causal
> relationship between introduced carnivores and loss of species. You could
> also include the success of various baiting programs as evidence.
>
> And then there is this:
>
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/feral-cats-wreak-havoc-in-raid-on-enclosed-refuge-for-endangered-bilbies/story-e6freoof-1226429359126
> .
> The population of Bilby in Currawinya NP massacred by cats.
>
> Most damning though is a recent experiment run by the AWC in the Northern
> Territory:
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/jury-is-in-on-feral-cats-caught-redpawed-in-rat-bloodbath-20121228-2bz4t.html
> .
> A simple experiment to be sure, but highly effective in proving the point.
>
> Personally I think that qualifies as ample evidence that feral cats (and
> foxes) are very harmful to our native animals. Arguing the science doesn't
> exist doesn't cut it for me.
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Jeremy O'Wheel <> wrote:
>
> > I think this article is falling for the fallacy of argument from
> ignorance.
> > There haven't been very good studies on the impact of feral cats on the
> > mainland of Australia, so from the scientific evidence it's difficult to
> > claim that they don't have an impact, or that they do have an impact.
> >
> > I have heard a carnivore ecologist suggest that they could be doing good
> > though, because in large parts of Australia all of the former main
> > predators are extinct or functionally extinct (such as Tasmania), so
> > animals like cats and foxes may have moved in to fill the niche, while
> > animals threatened by cats and foxes mainly already went extinct in the
> > second wave of human facilitated mass extinctions in Australia. There
> are
> > some individual exceptions to this I believe, but I guess the case being
> > made to me was that in general the impact of cats isn't severe. I have
> my
> > doubts about the case for cats though.
> >
> > Anyway until some robust science is done that looks at more than
> > just casualties (since predators are important part of ecosystems and
> > everything dies, so the fact that predators eat particular animals
> doesn't
> > necessarily mean they're doing damage), I think claims that cats are
> good,
> > bad or neutral for the environment should be viewed with some caution.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Andrew Thelander <
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Adrian Franklin also develops this argument in his book, Animal Nation
> > > (UNSW Press, 2006) in which he cites others who have drawn this
> > > metaphorical parallel between attitudes to feral animals and human
> > > immigrants. He seems to like Tim Low's book, The New Nature, saying
> "the
> > > implication from Tim Low is that if we let go of the idea of a proper,
> > > perfectible nature and concentrate on *possible* natures and how we can
> > > assist them into being, then all manner of beautiful, interesting and
> > > life-affirming things can happen that are truly Australian, reflecting
> > our
> > > true history and natural history. This is the enigma of hybrid
> > > environments, hybrid lives and human-animal relations." [p.235]
> > > Aside from the question whether automatic loathing of feral animals is
> a
> > > form of "eco-nationalism", I assume Franklin thinks we can't
> practically
> > > eradicate feral cats (look at how the Brits at an early stage poured
> > money
> > > into eradicating Nth American stoats but failed) but that we can
> "assist
> > > into being" some kind of hybrid balance between the old and the new
> that
> > > doesn't involve actual extinction. This may not be as silly as it
> sounds
> > > given recent publicity about how protecting dingos in some areas keeps
> > > foxes and cats down and allows small mammals to maintain numbers.
> > > Does Franklin have a point or should we just repeat the call made in
> 1996
> > > by the WA Liberal MP, Richard Evans, who wanted all cats - feral or
> > > otherwise - eradicated from Australia by 2020? Good old King Canute??
> > >
> > > On 08/01/2013, at 11:51 AM, Andrew Stafford wrote:
> > >
> > > > To put it impolitely, this might be the biggest load of crap this
> side
> > > of a dysentery epidemic:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/hatred-of-feral-cats-hides-a-sinister-truth-20130107-2ccqu.html
> > > >
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