Western/Mallee Whipbird & Schodde and Mason

["Dean Portelli" <>]

Thank you to both Michael and Rohan for their very very very rapid 
assistance, I got the reply while still logged onto the internet - now 
that's speedy service. (Now another request for more info on W/M Whipbirds - 
see below).
While I concede that providing the results of more complex statistics or the 
results of statistical tests is not feasible in the publication by Schodde 
and Mason I am perplexed as to why sample sizes and to a lesser extent 
specimen identification numbers/locations are not provided (although with 
some taxa the sample sizes may be too great to report all the specimens 
used, in this case perhaps "type" specimens that represent the variation 
being discussed could have been provided). It certainly would have made the 
publication more robust, which in turn would in my opinion do something to 
lessen the controversy that it has stirred (although that is exactly what 
taxonomic classifications set out to do and achieve in every case!!!).
RFI WESTERN WHIPBIRDS
I extend a further request to B-A listers, I may be preparing a brief report 
for CALM in Western Australia on Western Whipbirds and Western Bristlebirds 
at 2PB in the near future, hence my request for info on Schodde and Mason's 
taxonomy, I am interested in any plumage descriptions (or anything else 
anyone cares to add - so little is known about this species!!) of birds seen 
at Two Peoples Bay/ManyPeaks NR/Waychinicup NR or even Stirlings (basically 
anywhere in SW WA) - I am aware there are a couple in the archives. These 
descriptions would compliment my own and of course full credit will be given 
to the people who made the sightings in the report. I am hoping to try and 
provide a better insight into whether the birds at 2PB (and neighbouring 
Waychinicup/ManyPeaks which most likely forms a single population although 
it is probably fragmented to some extent - However, Noisy Scrub-birds are 
able to move from 2PB to Manypeaks if they wanted to in fact the population 
is almost contiguous if it wasn't for the wildfire in December 2000 which 
wiped out many scrub-bird territories - anyway, the main point was that 
Whipbirds could conceivably disperse between the two areas and would thus be 
the same subspecies/species - I believe Frank O'Connor had an earlier 
posting questioning what the Waychinicup birds would be - Mallee or 
Western).
Any help anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Once again blown away by the quick response from Rohan and Michael - thanks 
guys!
Cheers,
Dean Portelli


> From: Rohan Clarke <>
> To: "" <>
> Subject: RE: [BIRDING-AUS] Western/Mallee Whipbird & Schodde and Mason
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:52:05 +1000
>
> Hi Dean,
> No sample sizes are given for Western Whipbird taxa. On p 6 of the book
> under Materials it states 'most totals for species are listed under the
> relevant species in the text, in the section Taxonomic circumscription. (I
> presume totals = sample size) This is not the case for the Western Whipbird
> complex.
>
> As for the science...on page 10 it states 'We are all too aware that 
> graphic
> presentation of the results of analysis, in the form of data matrices,
> diagrams  and statistical tests (e.g. analysis of variance) would help
> readers and improve rigour. Preparing them, however proved complex, space
> expensive and time consuming, leading us to the decision not to exclude 
> them
> but to postpone them for inclusion in future electronic up-dates of the
> Directory".
>
> The bottom line is this is a very impressive review of Australian bird taxa
> and the first complete review of passerines to sub-specific (or ultra taxa)
> level since G. Matthews work many many years ago. The authors findings have
> important implications for Australian ornithology. For example this is the
> first real working list of Australian passerine sub-species (or ultra taxa)
> for conservation purposes.  However, in the absence of lists of specimens
> examined, the results of statistical analysis (which we are told were
> undertaken) and many sample sizes it is extremely difficult for the
> discerning reader to interpret many of their findings. Lets hope the
> 'science' is eventually published in electronic up-dates as suggested.
>
> Rohan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Portelli 
> Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 16:19
> To: 
> Subject: [BIRDING-AUS] Western/Mallee Whipbird & Schodde and Mason
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am hoping someone can help me with the descriptions of Mallee & Western
> Whipbird in Schodde and Mason (1998) Directory of Australian Birds:
> Passerines. I have photocopies of the relevant pages for both species but 
> am
> interested in the sample size that they used to assess plumage differences
> between populations/sites. Nowhere in the text on these pages do they list
> the number of specimens examined (except to say they have none from Two
> Peoples!!) - I wonder if anyone who owns the book could tell me if the
> sample size is listed anywhere else in the book (it will save me an hours
> hike into my old uni's library!!). If the sample size is not quoted I find
> this to be poor science, it is BASIC practice to quote sample sizes in any
> study. As I suspect there are not many W/M Whipbird specimens in existence
> given the elusive nature of the species, hence the sample size may have 
> much
> to do with how accurate the proposed taxonomy is.
> I would greatly appreciate any assistance from anyone out there - even if 
> it
> is to tell me that they don't quote sample sizes!!
>
> Many Thanks in Advance
> Dean Portelli
>
>
>
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